Raw Ale / No Boil
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It's a shelf stable product. So yeah.
Scott Janish had a pretty good blog post about it (@ scottjanish.com/blog/ ).
applescrap
Be the ball!
First no boil done. Ironically it took the same 2.5 hours my 45 minute boil batches take. Albeit this was much less work and "on" time for sure. I didnt keep track of time very well and wanted to just kind of take it slow, so to speak. Started at 6:42 dumping water in heating 6g of artesian water on stove. It was cold out, nice to be inside except for cleaning. About 708 was at 169. Wanted to mash a little higher.
Mash hopped 1.5oz Willamette and added grain. Stirred really really well. Stirred some more and was at 156. Figured ok, and wrapped it up in towell and left it. Later realized I forgot to set timer but figured oh well and set it for 45. Started wondering if 1.5 oz would create enough ibus so i boiled 2cups water in pyrex in the microwave and threw in 0.5 oz Willamette and let it sit. Didnt keep very good time, but ibu calc said .125g boil for 5.5g batch with 5 percent aa in 1.00 solution was close to 9 ibus at 20 minutes, 10 at 30 and 13 at an hour or something like that so figured no big deal either way. Those are enough with the mash hops for pumpkin. Mash timer went off while I was reading bed time stories to 4 yo daughter. . Went down stairs later and got to it. Squeezed bag, sanatized fermenter. Lazily sanatized squeeze bucket and colander. Figured it was all cold side now. And sanatized pumpkin can tops and can opener. Drain and squeezed my sack hard, added pumpkin to mash, added spices, and squeezed wort and stirred. Put in fermenter and temp was 136. Will see, thanks for the inspiration!
Mash hopped 1.5oz Willamette and added grain. Stirred really really well. Stirred some more and was at 156. Figured ok, and wrapped it up in towell and left it. Later realized I forgot to set timer but figured oh well and set it for 45. Started wondering if 1.5 oz would create enough ibus so i boiled 2cups water in pyrex in the microwave and threw in 0.5 oz Willamette and let it sit. Didnt keep very good time, but ibu calc said .125g boil for 5.5g batch with 5 percent aa in 1.00 solution was close to 9 ibus at 20 minutes, 10 at 30 and 13 at an hour or something like that so figured no big deal either way. Those are enough with the mash hops for pumpkin. Mash timer went off while I was reading bed time stories to 4 yo daughter. . Went down stairs later and got to it. Squeezed bag, sanatized fermenter. Lazily sanatized squeeze bucket and colander. Figured it was all cold side now. And sanatized pumpkin can tops and can opener. Drain and squeezed my sack hard, added pumpkin to mash, added spices, and squeezed wort and stirred. Put in fermenter and temp was 136. Will see, thanks for the inspiration!
applescrap
Be the ball!
Had to uninstall and reinstall app to get pics going.
Wish I would have sanatized the squeeze bucket better. Figure the bag was at least a 150 when it was put in there. A little worried about sanitation to tell the truth.
View attachment 1510293455485.jpg
Wish I would have sanatized the squeeze bucket better. Figure the bag was at least a 150 when it was put in there. A little worried about sanitation to tell the truth.
View attachment 1510293455485.jpg
Yea... I have a small 9 gallon kettle and I do BIAB. So space is at a premium. Using oat milk allows me to add fermentables with 100% efficiency, saves space during the mash (no oats in mash) and gives all the qualities to the beer that flaked oats would.
A gravity reading of the oat milk by the brand Pacific was 1.046. So for 1 gallon, I add it to brewers friend as a custom grain with 46 PPG.
Also... its great in coffee
applescrap
Be the ball!
Some more bs with this beer. I'm busy tonight so I needed to pitch the yeast this morning. Well when I checked on it this morning it was at 85. Because I was worried about Sanitation and wouldn't have time later I figured the best thing I could do was get it fermenting as soon as possible. So I pitch the yeast at 85. If it gives some Esther's I hope it doesn't matter too much. I'm guessing the pasteurization happened over time. Am I wrong in thinking that doing this technique with Brew in a bag means that the mash needs to be pulled well above 140 or the equipment used to drain the bag has to be sanitized?
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Semi interested in this raw process. Few questions
Is anybody using pressure cooker for hop boil? I dont think it will raise ibu level a whole lot but it’s definitely faster. Or is the mini-quasi-decoction a better route?
Sounds like whirlfloc is needed to avoid astringency from polyphenols, etc interacting with hop oils? Or no?
Are flaked, carpils/carafoam, etc necessary if the no boil by itself helps with body and mouthfeel?
How difficult to get into typical 6% range with BIAB no boil? Finer crush, very thick mashes, big ass pot?
What sort of ABVs?
Is anybody using pressure cooker for hop boil? I dont think it will raise ibu level a whole lot but it’s definitely faster. Or is the mini-quasi-decoction a better route?
Sounds like whirlfloc is needed to avoid astringency from polyphenols, etc interacting with hop oils? Or no?
Are flaked, carpils/carafoam, etc necessary if the no boil by itself helps with body and mouthfeel?
How difficult to get into typical 6% range with BIAB no boil? Finer crush, very thick mashes, big ass pot?
What sort of ABVs?
I also thought about pressure cookers, it might be a really good idea. Would surely speed things up.
I wouldn't do the hop tea with Wort as this would create some dms when heated above 80c, just use water instead.
Biab no boil needs a pot which can take one third of the final beer volume.
One third is for the hop tea, one third is for the mash and with the remaining third, you refill the bag after extracting the Wort (you can use cold water for this step) to solve the remaining sugars. Let it sit for five minutes after a good stir and then extract again. Then you can combine everything and cool it and ferment it.
... At least this is the process that works best for me.
You have to know your efficiency with this system to calculate your Og. I get about 80% so I calculate the grain bill accordingly.
The hops are boiled separately in the third of the water designated to the hop tea.
applescrap
Be the ball!
I didnt, I did biab with a little less water than normal. But since the mash is thicker, batch sparging wouldn't be the worst idea for this kind of Brewing. I microwaved two cups of water to Boiling and steeped the Hops in it. IBU calculators can calculate hops in water. As noted hops isomerize better in plain water. If you are going to batch sparge, then it's not the worst idea to bring it up to 160 before putting it in the fermenting vessel. I kind of half-a.. sanitized and sought to keep the fluid above 140 into the bucket. As it sits there cooling at 140 or even above surely it is sanitizing. 160 is the temperature of flash pasteurization. As it sets at temperatures below that overtime it is also sanitizing. At least that's what I'm hoping. Back to the original issue since the Wort is more concentrated the amount lost in absorption becomes much more important
So maybe i wasn’t totally clear in my questions but my hope would be to work this method on a normal 6%ish beer.
So if i did any sparging it would have to be after mashing to an extremely high gravity as the sparge would dilute.
Decisions decisions.
So if i did any sparging it would have to be after mashing to an extremely high gravity as the sparge would dilute.
Decisions decisions.
Ok, so my HBC met yesterday and I brought my two bottles, one boiled and one not. They were not identical, but both tasted good. Actually most of the folks present said they liked the no boil beer better. Also the no boil was significantly clearer. The difference I noticed was it seemed the boil did help everything meld, the no boil seemed like each ingredient was more distinct.
I will definitely be doing more no boil brewing. It is not about the time for me. Usually if I'm brewing I figure about 4 hours from start to finish. Where I may use this is when I'm brewing a partigyle, or small beer after sparging the grains from a bigger beer. Of course I will have to remember I will not have any boil off so the OG coming out of the MT will be the OG. Maybe double the trouble (threads) and ferment with lager yeast at ale temps, just for fun.
I will definitely be doing more no boil brewing. It is not about the time for me. Usually if I'm brewing I figure about 4 hours from start to finish. Where I may use this is when I'm brewing a partigyle, or small beer after sparging the grains from a bigger beer. Of course I will have to remember I will not have any boil off so the OG coming out of the MT will be the OG. Maybe double the trouble (threads) and ferment with lager yeast at ale temps, just for fun.
Ok, so my HBC met yesterday and I brought my two bottles, one boiled and one not. They were not identical, but both tasted good. Actually most of the folks present said they liked the no boil beer better. Also the no boil was significantly clearer. The difference I noticed was it seemed the boil did help everything meld, the no boil seemed like each ingredient was more distinct.
I will definitely be doing more no boil brewing. It is not about the time for me. Usually if I'm brewing I figure about 4 hours from start to finish. Where I may use this is when I'm brewing a partigyle, or small beer after sparging the grains from a bigger beer. Of course I will have to remember I will not have any boil off so the OG coming out of the MT will be the OG. Maybe double the trouble (threads) and ferment with lager yeast at ale temps, just for fun.
Did that with a Pilsener, see the "lazy German" thread in the lager recipe forum. Turned out great!
My raw Indian red has a strong infection, hoping for Brett. Big pellicle on top, looks like an alien wasteland. There is a Foto in the lambic forum here in the thread "helps! I gots the bretts!!"
Bought myself two new fermenters, a glas one to age the (hopefully) Brett red Indian for months and a plastic one to keep going with the daylie fermentation. The old one gets into the bin.
Next will be a raw mild split into two batches and brewed with two different yeasts (Belgian and s04)
applescrap
Be the ball!
The pumpkin beer went nuts. Fermented over a few days so no issue from warm pitch. I am not surprised about infections with these, see my comments above. I think the wort must enter the fermenter above 140 so it can pasteurize in the fermenter. Or everything that touches it must be cold side sanatized.
Thanks cmac for the findings. It sounds like there was no doughy or fresh wort taste. That is my concern.
Thanks cmac for the findings. It sounds like there was no doughy or fresh wort taste. That is my concern.
I doubt that it has anything to do with the raw technic, I have just ****ing poor sanitation standards.
I never sanitise, only soap and hot water and even forgot to wear gloves when squeezing the wort out of the bag. With sanitised equipment and gloves, this probably wouldn't have happened.
... Will start to sanitise now.
With no boil almost everything is on the cold side and sanitation needs to be a much higher priority no doubt. 
The only difference I noted was that the boiled beer seemed more integrated. The raw beer had a different flavor, and I could definitely taste the grains and hops more.
With no boil almost everything is on the cold side and sanitation needs to be a much higher priority no doubt.
Well, that is only half of the truth. Above 60c, everything gets pasteurised, which means there will be even less amounts of bugs left that would have been left after sanitation with star san etc..
As mentioned before by applescrap, I think one of the things that could be done is to make sure that the wort enters the fermenter above 60c to ensure the ongoing pasteurisation also pasteurises the fermenter. Meaning my cold sparging days might be over now...
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
No, you're just killing most things. But not everything. Boiling will kill more things, pressure-cooking will kill even more. But even autoclaved media can see the odd fungal spore germinate after a few months.
The 60C thing is just doing a "good enough" job for most purposes, as it's pretty much killing anything that is actively alive (assuming you've not picked up certain weird bacteria from hot springs) but it won't touch many things when they are "hibernating" as a spore.
Exactly, I never said that it kills everything, but I said that pasteurising does a better job than star san and co. 60c is the lowest possible temperature where pasteurisation happens, the higher the better. So in our case, to be sure, I would aim for something around 65c or higher when transferring into the fermenter just to account for possible temperature drops due to a cold fermenter or air contact during the pouring.
Actually, I was also thinking about the hot spring bugs and the bugs next to the black smokers in the ocean when I read about the pasteurisation stuff yesterday. Luckily the distance between my kitchen and yellow stone and the bottom of the deep sea is big enough to be almost 100% sure that there won't be any contamination from those sources happening
applescrap
Be the ball!
With no boil almost everything is on the cold side and sanitation needs to be a much higher priority no doubt.
Ohh great, now you tell me! Haha, cheers
Since I made that beer I have commented many times on this and it's been racking my brain. I use a bucket colander and lid to squeeze the bag. I'm starting to think the best thing to do is after squeezing the bag and all that, to put the pot back on until it hits 160. Sitting in the bucket no chilling at 160 it will definitely pasteurize everything. Option b is to work quick enough that the beer enters the fermenter above 140ish where it can remain for a half hour. And option c, sanatize everything overly well. I think the easiest thing to do is heat wort before putting in bucket? What are your thoughts?
Hahahaha, another accidental lambic in the making?Ohh great, now you tell me! Haha, cheers
As I do not have a pot big enough to reheat my wort, I will try to keep everything above 60c. I will mash a bit higher for this... Or maybe I will reheat the wort a bit... Hmmmmmm... Certainly don't want to buy a third fermenter because I got another accident lambic going on....
Ohh great, now you tell me! Haha, cheers
Since I made that beer I have commented many times on this and it's been racking my brain. I use a bucket colander and lid to squeeze the bag. I'm starting to think the best thing to do is after squeezing the bag and all that, to put the pot back on until it hits 160. Sitting in the bucket no chilling at 160 it will definitely pasteurize everything. Option b is to work quick enough that the beer enters the fermenter above 140ish where it can remain for a half hour. And option c, sanitize everything overly well. I think the easiest thing to do is heat wort before putting in bucket? What are your thoughts?
Yea, I would pasturize at 160ish for a few secs them dump into fermenter, let it cool and pitch in the a.m., as long as everything it touches afterwards is sanitized well. Sounds sound to me :rockin:
I'm no expert, but it seems if you sanitize the fermenter and put it in hot there should be no issues. I have never had an infected batch and I rinse everything in starsan that touches the beer after I turn off the boil. So sanitize your fermenter like always and there should be no issues there. IMHO.
A chemical spray bottle and a gallon of distilled water($3 total investment) will do wonders.
If your not sanitizing the fermentor properly, you are only pasteurizing the parts of the fermentor that the wort is touching. That's not good enough.
Another thing to consider is you will have a decent amount of suck back as the wort cools. Big issue is lacto around 100-115 F. Replacing your airlock with one of inline hepa filters may be beneficial.
The Aussie nochill method involves one of those pet cubes, with all the air pushed out. That way, everything touches the wort, and no bugs in the air and no hot side oxidation.
Another thought, instead of mashing at 160+, why not just do a decoction? If it's large enough, you will guarantee you get up to 165+. Few other ways to do it, but taking a couple of qts from 160 to boiling takes little time. May as well add some hops while your at it.
Cheers.
If your not sanitizing the fermentor properly, you are only pasteurizing the parts of the fermentor that the wort is touching. That's not good enough.
Another thing to consider is you will have a decent amount of suck back as the wort cools. Big issue is lacto around 100-115 F. Replacing your airlock with one of inline hepa filters may be beneficial.
The Aussie nochill method involves one of those pet cubes, with all the air pushed out. That way, everything touches the wort, and no bugs in the air and no hot side oxidation.
Another thought, instead of mashing at 160+, why not just do a decoction? If it's large enough, you will guarantee you get up to 165+. Few other ways to do it, but taking a couple of qts from 160 to boiling takes little time. May as well add some hops while your at it.
Cheers.
The reason why we do not have problems with dms using the no boil method is that we do not heat above 80c. If you do decoction, you will generate dms.
I agree with the above, sanitising everything is a good idea.
I agree with the above, sanitising everything is a good idea.
applescrap
Be the ball!
So here is a pasteurization chart showing how long something needs to sit at each temperature. You can see if the beer enters the fermenter at 145, then that's probably going to be good enough and any higher all the better. For me I will work quicker next time and just make sure that beer enters the sanitized fermenter after the mash much quicker. Even if the colander and squeeze bucket aren't sanitized, at 145 degrees the beer will pasteurize in 10 minutes.
