Raw Ale / No Boil

[squaremile]

Ok made my 3rd no boil beer today. Went great, WF did its magic again even with 15% oats. Mash out was in the mid 170s and I did a post-mash hopburst technique where I added hops every 5m of the 20m hopstand. We'll see if that does anything.

 

[ghohn]

Ok made my 3rd no boil beer today. Went great, WF did its magic again even with 15% oats. Mash out was in the mid 170s and I did a post-mash hopburst technique where I added hops every 5m of the 20m hopstand. We'll see if that does anything.

I think we are twins separated at birth! I'm making my 5th n boil boil today. Also making a hoppy number but with 20% wheat. Hosteepin' as well.

 

[squaremile]

I think we are twins separated at birth! I'm making my 5th n boil boil today. Also making a hoppy number but with 20% wheat. Hosteepin' as well.

NOICE!!! Just checked your blog on these, please keep them up, learning a lot from your process and results. Very encouraging that you have yet to get DMS from this technique. I'm starting to wonder if DMS even exists anymore on a homebrew scale, but that's for another time.

I'm using S-04 on this batch, Chinook and Centennial hopstand (5oz), Mosaic dry hop. OG is 1.033. Golden promise, oats, a touch of Victory for the grain bill, 154 mash temp.

 

[ghohn]

Glad you got some use from my writeup. I'll continue to edit it as a running tally of the no boil beers I make. I've had DMS on a boiled beer before so I know what it tastes like. I think the key is committing to no boil and not breaching that SMM/DMS production threshold. It seems some people need to see an actual boil for a minute. This minute, or the total time between 180f-212f is more the issue so one needs to commit to either no boil or a full boil.

As far as the brew session today, I added some whirfloc with the 7oz hop steep and the difference in wort is night and day. It looks just as good as my boiled beers going from kettle to keg.

 

[squaremile]

Thought I'd add another post here. I have now made 8 no boil beers. All were 3%-ish session IPAs with various grain bills, adjuncts, yeasts, and hop schedules. None have been infected or have off notes. I am so happy with this process that I truly do not think I would ever decide to boil a beer again.

Some myths that people should know that I am extremely confident in now:

1. Substantial bitterness is added at sub-170F temps. I'd estimate I'm getting at least 30 IBU from a 15m hopstand in 3.25 gallons of wort from 4.5oz of hops.

2. Pasteurization temperature is what is important in killing bugs, not boiling. All of my mash-outs have been between 165-175, no issues.

3. Using whirlfloc completely clears the beer, even at 165 degrees.

4. No flavor is imparted at all from no boiling, but I suspect there are some slight benefits to head retention and body, especially for the session IPA style.

5. DMS either does not exist, or it is not produced in perceivable levels at 170.

6. Someday no boil will be the new no chill.

 

[aprichman]

<duplicate post>

 

[aprichman]

Thought I'd add another post here. I have now made 8 no boil beers. All were 3%-ish session IPAs with various grain bills, adjuncts, yeasts, and hop schedules. None have been infected or have off notes. I am so happy with this process that I truly do not think I would ever decide to boil a beer again.

Some myths that people should know that I am extremely confident in now:

1. Substantial bitterness is added at sub-170F temps. I'd estimate I'm getting at least 30 IBU from a 15m hopstand in 3.25 gallons of wort from 4.5oz of hops.

2. Pasteurization temperature is what is important in killing bugs, not boiling. All of my mash-outs have been between 165-175, no issues.

3. Using whirlfloc completely clears the beer, even at 165 degrees.

4. No flavor is imparted at all from no boiling, but I suspect there are some slight benefits to head retention and body, especially for the session IPA style.

5. DMS either does not exist, or it is not produced in perceivable levels at 170.

6. Someday no boil will be the new no chill.

You do realize different people have different levels of sensitivity to compounds like DMS? In sensory testing done at OSU we saw a large percentage of individuals with the ability to detect DMS around 10ppm and another large percentage that required several hundred ppm.

With darker base malts you can minimize DMS, but it is still going to be present. It is considered to be good practice to lose at least 3% volume during the boil if you don't have a way of filtering out the DMS (a practice that's really only done commercially). If you have a good filtration system you could theoretically remove DMS to a level that would be hard to detect analytically. Even using a good vigorous boil or going a step further and using a caldera still leaves detectable levels of DMS in the beer. As far as a NO BOIL, there's absolutely DMS in your beer. At what levels I can't say without testing a sample, as I said earlier if you use darker base malts it might not be at outrageous levels. Also remember that perceptible levels of DMS can actually be appropriate in some styles and IMO isn't the necessarily a "beer breaking" off flavor.

As far as the bitterness goes, a lot of that is probably coming from the oxidized beta acids. The hop compounds that are oxidized or isomerized are much more soluble in wort. At 170F you're probably not ismoerizing the alpha acids but the oxidized betas would readily dissolve into the wort.

 

[SuckaMooHudda]

BOOM!! That just happened!! Very interesting post.

BUT...on the other side, I love it when people attempt to break tradition, or whatever we call the "typical brewing process". "Experts" can tell you what has been done, and usually they will also tell you that certain things that cannot be done. I say, F-em all. Keep pluggin' away and prove that our brew days can be done in 90 minutes with no off flavors or the likes!!

BTW, can I get your Chocolate Oatmeal Stout recipe, please?

 

[squaremile]

Got an iso alpha extract and dry hop only no boil beer coming up, and two no boil no chill beers conditioning. Stay tuned.

 

[moreb33rplz]

What about beers bigger than 3%?

 

[squaremile]

Haven't done them because right now I'm just into drinking super low ABV beers. You should make one and tell us how it goes!

Also still no detectable DMS from anyone who has had these, although I'm aware that there can be trace amounts that are imperceptible. Interested in the bitterness being from oxidized beta acids instead of isomerization too, although I'm not sure how to play around with that.

Another thing I'm curious about is the body of these have all been better than the commercial session IPAs I've had, so I'm guessing something is going on with the proteins that is making a positive impact on that feature.

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

I'm going to have to read up on this! Pretty dang interesting!

 

[ghohn]

Reporting back.

I've been on this procedure for the past few months and love it. I'll just add a couple of my findings. I've been keg fermenting w/ a spunding valve to achieve the ultimate in laziness/no O2 pickup. As such, it's really important to do a whirlpool AND not short yourself on wort. What I mean is, you don't want to be sucking in those last running of wort into your keg to get a full keg. I'm obsessed with filling kegs completely, and as much as it pains me not be able to do so, you end up tasting the smegma you pulled in there for the first several pints which can be kind of off-putting as a first impression.

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

Ok, so I've read this post, as well as a few articles online. If you're basically able to achieve the same beer, regardless of the hop situation (I don't care for hoppy beers anyways), why wouldn't everyone switch to this method?

I'm definitely not being sarcastic, but absolutely serious. Since from what I read it shaves quite a bit of time and money, why not just switch to this?

What are the downsides? Does the beer not last as long in bottle? Am I missing something? With this, technically, you could make as much beer as your cooler/mash tun could hold correct?

 

[squaremile]

I am starting to be convinced after making this many beers without boiling that it is legit, but like so many things in homebrewing, we are influenced by tradition, our own habits, and fear of something ruining the beer.

I remember asking a LHBS crew if they ever actually did a 20m boil with Pilsner malt, and they said "if you do that then your beer will taste like creamed corn" and I said "I've heard that, but have you ever, or known of anyone ever actually TRYING it" and the guy said "why do that when you know it will ruin your beer?" That has been my experience with dozens of things, no boil being maybe the biggest. (also why I love the Brulosophy exBeeriments so much).

The biggest boogeyman here is worrying that the bugs inherently on the grain will survive and infect the beer. If you read up on pasteurization, you learn that fear isn't realistic at all, and lacto and these other bugs don't magically die at 212. Only rarely would it even live through a few mins at mashing temps in the 150s. This is why when you do a kettle sour, you don't throw the bugs in until you're below 120.

In terms of no boil, there are a lot of extract kits that you don't need to boil, so there is already a precedent for it, but not with all grain. So far, for the type of beers I make, the boil would add nothing that I can explicitly identify. I haven't done shelf stability tests so that's a great question, and I personally haven't brewed a range of styles or those with normal ABV, so maybe there are issues with those that are not coming into play here? That's also a really going point about the volume, you don't need that extra space for the boil over, because the mash out / pasteurization step is well under boiling so the volume doesn't change much at all from the mash as it warms.

Some things that I think no boil adds (besides more time in my day) is more body and possibly better head retention, I'm guessing from proteins not breaking down the same way they might in a boil, but a science person may correct me on that. If more people did this, then I do honestly think it could catch on.

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

These are quick fermenter to in hand drinking beers? Or regular time? 2 weeks in primary, bottle, condition for another two, fridge for a week, etc?

This just seems crazy not to jump on this bandwagon, especially if you want to brew a big batch but are limited on brew kettle size.

I'm not saying I won't boil or whatever, but if this is a great fix for 3-4% brews, hey why not.

(I'm sort of limited on brew kettle size, so as I'm reading this, I am thinking "I could do 8-10 gallons of this stuff, and not have to worry about having a big enough brew kettle!")

On the age of the raw beer, http://mutedog.beer/blog/raw-brett-ale-tasting this guy fermented his for FOUR Months! I can't hardly imagine time being of the essence to drink it if he's fermenting it for 4 months?

Just cool stuff to think about.

 

[squaremile]

I do a standard fermentation and bottle conditioning process. Usually my yeast is done in a few days depending on the strain, I dry hop on the 5th, bottle on the 10th, drink on the 20th-24th depending on my patience. I read that Mute Dog post when I was researching, but he did his fermenting with wilds and brett, so that's prob why it took so long. The main phase from my most recent with rehydrated s-04 at 66 degrees was like 2.5 days.

Glad this all got you thinking, if you try it, please share your results!

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

I definitely will! It'll be a couple of moths maybe, as I get my feet more wet as I'm honestly just getting into brewing.

But, the historical aspect of it, plus the ability to brew a large amount of beer without having to boil it is very appealing to me at this point in the game.

Maybe there should be a new threat or forum column(?) for "No Boil Brews" if it starts to gain some steam? I realize, at this point, a few threads on here can't justify it. However, if the trend started to grow, hey, why not?

I'm actually pretty stoked to try it and may actually try it on a 2 gallon upcoming batch since it wouldn't take near as much time.

 

[ghohn]

It's worth mentioning that I collect all of my runnings and bring them up to 76c for both pasteurization and hop steeping. So to that effect, you'd still need a container large enough to accomplish that.

Disadvantages? My beers have a grainy edge BUT I do feel like it benefits the 3% beers I like to make. Also, they take a bit longer to clear out. Possibly long-term stability? I don't know.

Otherwise, give it a go and see if it works for you. If it's any indication of to how I feel about the process, I make 10 gallon batches of no boil

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

Just out of curiosity, and I always hate raising questions as I've never done it, and you guys have extensive experience with brewing all together compared to me, but when you add your strike water, and mash at 152+ for an hour, wouldn't that be sufficient to pasteurize?

Also, just out of curiosity, why not add your hops directly to the mash at different intervals throughout the mash perhaps?

Just thinking on it.

 

[squaremile]

The mash temp probably is enough to get it done actually. I take the extra step to be more certain, for doing a hopstand at a higher temp, and because I had also heard that mash hopping doesn't do much for hop character because the hop compounds attach to the grains and don't end up in the wort at the levels you'd want. HOWEVER I had not tried it or thought about whether this would be different for no boil. I'm going to do some research and may try it for the next one. Thanks for the ideas!

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

This is awesome stuff! I can't wait to give this a shot!

 

[aprichman]

BOOM!! That just happened!! Very interesting post.

BUT...on the other side, I love it when people attempt to break tradition, or whatever we call the "typical brewing process". "Experts" can tell you what has been done, and usually they will also tell you that certain things that cannot be done. I say, F-em all. Keep pluggin' away and prove that our brew days can be done in 90 minutes with no off flavors or the likes!!

BTW, can I get your Chocolate Oatmeal Stout recipe, please?

Sure - I will get you the recipe when I get back home from vacation.

 

[Btaz]

I couldn't find it in a quick search, but in the past year the session on the brewing network interviewed a brewery in CA that does raw beers. It might have been the libertine brewery near morro rock. If you can find them they might help.

 

[squaremile]

Nice find! Anyone in CA to try it? https://untappd.com/b/the-libertine-pub-boardroom/1350474

 

[ghohn]

The mash temp probably is enough to get it done actually. I take the extra step to be more certain, for doing a hopstand at a higher temp, and because I had also heard that mash hopping doesn't do much for hop character because the hop compounds attach to the grains and don't end up in the wort at the levels you'd want. HOWEVER I had not tried it or thought about whether this would be different for no boil. I'm going to do some research and may try it for the next one. Thanks for the ideas!

Absolutely everything Squaremile said plus, at least in my setup, it's only a few degrees away from 76c/168f anyways so it's nice peace of mind. At 76c, I'm able to get more than enough hop character in my hoppy session beers. I don't know if that would be true of 67c/152f.

 

[ghohn]

These are quick fermenter to in hand drinking beers? Or regular time? 2 weeks in primary, bottle, condition for another two, fridge for a week, etc?

On the age of the raw beer, http://mutedog.beer/blog/raw-brett-ale-tasting this guy fermented his for FOUR Months! I can't hardly imagine time being of the essence to drink it if he's fermenting it for 4 months?

Just cool stuff to think about.

I'm usually drinking it by 14 days (even as little as 7 in a pinch) but I also ferment and carbonate (look into the wonders of a spunding valve) in the keg.

I think the 4 month ferment was more targeted at the brett more than the process of no boil.

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

Holy cow! 14 Days? I guess with kegging that's more of a possibility than with bottles, right?

I won't be doing any kegging for a long time, but I need to get a brew I can consistently have in the pipeline that's ready to drink in about 4 weeks time bottled. maybe a light pale ale or something. Gonna try raw in my next brew.

 

[aprichman]

BOOM!! That just happened!! Very interesting post.

BUT...on the other side, I love it when people attempt to break tradition, or whatever we call the "typical brewing process". "Experts" can tell you what has been done, and usually they will also tell you that certain things that cannot be done. I say, F-em all. Keep pluggin' away and prove that our brew days can be done in 90 minutes with no off flavors or the likes!!

BTW, can I get your Chocolate Oatmeal Stout recipe, please?

MALT:

9.00 lbs Pale malt (I used regular 2-row but any pale base malt would be appropriate)
0.75 lbs Roasted Barley (I used a UK malt for this)
0.75 lbs Pale Chocolate
0.50 lbs Flaked Barley
0.50 lbs Flaked Oats
0.25 lbs Crystal 60L

HOPS:

15g Warrior (Pellet) FWH (60 minute boil)
82g EKG (Flower) @ 5 minutes

MISC:

0.5 Campden tab @ 60 minutes
0.5 Whirfloc tab @ 10 minutes
1.5 tsp yeast nutrient @ 10 minutes

YEAST:

WLP004 Irish Ale Yeast

MASH:

Single infusion @ 153F for 60 minutes @ 1.5qt/lb

Sparge to hit ~7 gallons of wort or however much you typically need to achieve a 5.5 gallon batch size with a 60 minute boil.

For this beer I used a couple of gallons of spring water mixed in with RO but you can add salts to taste preference.

 

[squaremile]

Are you saying you're doing a no boil version of that? Very curious how it will turn out!