Rauchbier PH Problems.

[kurds_2408]

I am planning to brew @passedpawn Rauchbier linked below. When I build the recipe in BrewFather it lists my PH as 4.96 before any adjustments. This is using my tap water which is usually very good for brewing and is always higher ph before water treatment. Is this the smoked malt causing it? I set the water profile as Marzen thinking that'd be a good base. Problem is I can't get the PH above 5 without raising the sodium or calcium too high. Also the Bicarbonate is high no matter what I do. I've got Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, Epsom Salt, Canning Salt, Slaked Lime, and Baking Soda. Everyone says avoid Chalk so now I don't really know what to do. Do I leave it at 5? Do I push the Sodium and/or Calcium higher? Do I try a different mineral? Should I use a different base profile?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/cherry-beech-smokebeer-many-awards.157818/

Tap
Ca=6 Mg=0 Na=15 Cl=3 SO=15 HCO=34

Target
Ca=62 Mg=15 Na=50 Cl=100 SO=50 HCO=80

Best I can get at ph of 5
Ca=68 Mg=5 Na=50 Cl=101 SO=52 HCO=125

 

[passedpawn]

I am planning to brew @passedpawn Rauchbier linked below. When I build the recipe in BrewFather it lists my PH as 4.96 before any adjustments. This is using my tap water which is usually very good for brewing and is always higher ph before water treatment. Is this the smoked malt causing it? I set the water profile as Marzen thinking that'd be a good base. Problem is I can't get the PH above 5 without raising the sodium or calcium too high. Also the Bicarbonate is high no matter what I do. I've got Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, Epsom Salt, Canning Salt, Slaked Lime, and Baking Soda. Everyone says avoid Chalk so now I don't really know what to do. Do I leave it at 5? Do I push the Sodium and/or Calcium higher? Do I try a different mineral? Should I use a different base profile?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/cherry-beech-smokebeer-many-awards.157818/

Tap
Ca=6 Mg=0 Na=15 Cl=3 SO=15 HCO=34

Target
Ca=62 Mg=15 Na=50 Cl=100 SO=50 HCO=80

Best I can get at ph of 5
Ca=68 Mg=5 Na=50 Cl=101 SO=52 HCO=125

Way outta my league there. I don't do water chemistry (though I have the meter and acids and salts etc).

Regarding that smoked beer, it's so good. I've brewed it numerous times.

 

[kurds_2408]

Way outta my league there. I don't do water chemistry (though I have the meter and acids and salts etc).

Regarding that smoked beer, it's so good. I've brewed it numerous times.

Lol. That's good to hear. I've never done a smoked beer so very excited.

 

[marc1]

I'd use calcium chloride and gypsum to get the Cl and sulfate levels approximately correct, then use baking soda to raise the pH. If sodium was going way too high, I'd then use the slaked lime. Don't worry about the calcium levels going too high.
You could also try adding some of the calcium chloride and gypsum to the sparge instead of the mash. Don't add baking soda or slaked lime to the sparge water.
Also, the bicarbonate isn't a target, it is to be increased only to increase pH.

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't see an immediate reason why the pH should be that low. Why don't you share your brewfather recipe so we can look at all your settings.

 

[kurds_2408]

I do no sparge. This is without water adjustment putting my ph at 4.96.​

​

Rauchbier​

5.6% / 14.7 °P
All Grain

Home eBIAB​

73.7% efficiency
Batch Volume: 5.75 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 8.24 gal
Total Water: 8.24 gal
Boil Volume: 7.44 gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.049

Vitals​

Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.017
IBU (Tinseth): 26
BU/GU: 0.43
Color: 12 SRM

Mash​

Strike Temp — 160.5 °F
Temperature — 154 °F — 60 min

Malts (12 lb 8 oz)​

3 lb 10 oz (29%) — Valley Malt Beechwood Smoked — Grain — 3 °L
3 lb 6 oz (27%) — Rahr Pale Malt, 2-Row — Grain — 1.9 °L
2 lb 13 oz (22.5%) — Valley Malt Cherrywood Smoked — Grain — 3 °L
2 lb (16%) — Weyermann Munich I — Grain — 6.2 °L
4.5 oz (2.3%) — Weyermann Caramunich I — Grain — 38.2 °L
4.5 oz (2.3%) — Weyermann Melanoidin — Grain — 22.7 °L
2 oz (1%) — Behmalt Black (Patent) Malt — Grain — 369.7 °L

Hops (2.75 oz)​

2 oz (23 IBU) — Willamette 5% — Boil — 60 min
0.75 oz (3 IBU) — Willamette 5% — Boil — 10 min

Miscs​

1 items — Whirlfloc — Boil — 10 min

Yeast​

1 pkg — White Labs WLP820 Octoberfest/Marzen Lager 73%
Step 1: 1.9 L starter
6.6 oz DME / 8.04 oz LME
Step 2: 2.3 L starter
7.97 oz DME / 9.74 oz LME
656 billion yeast cells
2.03 million cells / ml / °P

Fermentation​

Primary — 55 °F — 10 days
D. Rest — 65 °F (2 day ramp) — 14 days
Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol
Lager for 6 to 8 weeks after primary.

 

[marc1]

I threw this into Mash Made Easy real quick using your source water only (no other mineral additions), got a mash pH of 5.63:

 

[Brockness Monster]

Plugged that recipe into my Brewfather and got a pH of 5.04. Noticed that it is counting the smoked malts as roasted malts which is why it is calculating such a low pH. In the Water pH adjustments at the top you can see the grains with a little drop down on the right hand side that you can change to base malt which should be closer to the proper pH... I think, I don't use smoked malts often so I don't know for sure.

 

[jackbflyin]

One thing to help bring up pH a bit is to hold the black patent til last 15 minutes of the mash, as most of the conversion will have occurred by then.

 

[pfabsits]

I am planning to brew @passedpawn Rauchbier linked below. When I build the recipe in BrewFather it lists my PH as 4.96 before any adjustments. This is using my tap water which is usually very good for brewing and is always higher ph before water treatment. Is this the smoked malt causing it? I set the water profile as Marzen thinking that'd be a good base. Problem is I can't get the PH above 5 without raising the sodium or calcium too high. Also the Bicarbonate is high no matter what I do. I've got Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, Epsom Salt, Canning Salt, Slaked Lime, and Baking Soda. Everyone says avoid Chalk so now I don't really know what to do. Do I leave it at 5? Do I push the Sodium and/or Calcium higher? Do I try a different mineral? Should I use a different base profile?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/cherry-beech-smokebeer-many-awards.157818/

Tap
Ca=6 Mg=0 Na=15 Cl=3 SO=15 HCO=34

Target
Ca=62 Mg=15 Na=50 Cl=100 SO=50 HCO=80

Best I can get at ph of 5
Ca=68 Mg=5 Na=50 Cl=101 SO=52 HCO=125

I would be curious if you are using a pH meter to measure the pH. If you are using a pH meter then, what brand/model, and what buffers were used for calibration. pH meters are only as accurate as the condition of the probe and quality of the buffer (not old/contaminated). Unless you have an understanding of offset/slope, it is difficult to get an accurate reading. It is not unheard to have a 0.5 pH unit discrepancy.

In fact there was one customer (municipality) that was 1 pH unit off from a field versus lab measurement. In the field they were calibrating to pH 7 and 10. The pH 10 buffer was actually 9.5 resulting in a low slope (85%). They stored the probe with groundwater. That had a biofilm on the glass that lead to a high offset (60 mV). A little cleaning and using fresh buffers allowed for the the field and lab to match.

Once I know the meter brand/model then I can check to see if it can be reset to a default calibration. From there I need to know the pH value in 4 and 7 buffers. That will allow the offset/slope to be calculated. With that information then it is possible to know the quality of the measurement.

The sodium and calcium do not change pH. It is the counter ions, carbonate, bicarbonate, and hydroxide that will raise the pH. Epsom Salt or Magnesium Sulfate uses the Sulfate (SO4-2) ion that can react with the H+.

The carbonates, bicarbonate, and sulfate will add some buffering capacity while the hydroxide (OH-) neutralizes the H+

 

[mac_1103]

I would be curious if you are using a pH meter to measure the pH...

Pretty sure OP's question is about why the pH predicted by his software is so low (and perhaps whether he should trust that prediction).

 

[pfabsits]

Pretty sure OP's question is about why the pH predicted by his software is so low (and perhaps whether he should trust that prediction).

Thanks, I thought he was using the application for predicting pH and then asking what would be the best way to raise the pH above 5. My concern here is that people take the number on a meter as true without knowing what can impact the accuracy of the reading. I know a lot of brewers use the Milwaukee MW102. For that meter, it is possible to clear the calibration to the default mode then take a reading in the buffers to see the deviation from the theoretical values. For example, in pH 7 a reading from pH 6.5 (+30 mV) to pH 7.5 (-30 mV) would be okay. If the reading is outside that range then the probe should be cleaned.

Even though we manufacture cleaning solutions specifically for pH electrodes, the cleaning solutions used for contact lenses should work well. They tend to be enzymatic based which does a good job on breaking down proteins.

 

[mac_1103]

Even though we manufacture cleaning solutions specifically for pH electrodes, the cleaning solutions used for contact lenses should work well. They tend to be enzymatic based which does a good job on breaking down proteins.

I'm going to have to give that a try.

 

[DuncB]

Very interesting info about cleaning the electrode.

Wondering if in your water profile setup in profiles in brewfather what you have set the pH to?

 

[Witherby]

Plugged that recipe into my Brewfather and got a pH of 5.04. Noticed that it is counting the smoked malts as roasted malts which is why it is calculating such a low pH. In the Water pH adjustments at the top you can see the grains with a little drop down on the right hand side that you can change to base malt which should be closer to the proper pH... I think, I don't use smoked malts often so I don't know for sure.

@mabrungard in this thread says "I haven’t found that the smoke phenols change the mash pH. Base your pH estimate upon the grain color."

 

[kurds_2408]

I threw this into Mash Made Easy real quick using your source water only (no other mineral additions), got a mash pH of 5.63:

View attachment 885268

Oh wow! I haven't heard of Mash Made Easy. That's very cool and helps a lot. Thank you for doing that.

Plugged that recipe into my Brewfather and got a pH of 5.04. Noticed that it is counting the smoked malts as roasted malts which is why it is calculating such a low pH. In the Water pH adjustments at the top you can see the grains with a little drop down on the right hand side that you can change to base malt which should be closer to the proper pH... I think, I don't use smoked malts often so I don't know for sure.

@mabrungard in this thread says "I haven’t found that the smoke phenols change the mash pH. Base your pH estimate upon the grain color."

Good call. I didn't realize it was doing that or even that base vs. roasted make a difference. When I change that I get 5.5 to 5.65 depending on if I change the Patent as well. Should I leave the Patent as roasted or base? Thanks you so much.

 

[DuncB]

Patent is definitely roasted

 

[kurds_2408]

Thanks, I thought he was using the application for predicting pH and then asking what would be the best way to raise the pH above 5. My concern here is that people take the number on a meter as true without knowing what can impact the accuracy of the reading. I know a lot of brewers use the Milwaukee MW102. For that meter, it is possible to clear the calibration to the default mode then take a reading in the buffers to see the deviation from the theoretical values. For example, in pH 7 a reading from pH 6.5 (+30 mV) to pH 7.5 (-30 mV) would be okay. If the reading is outside that range then the probe should be cleaned.

Even though we manufacture cleaning solutions specifically for pH electrodes, the cleaning solutions used for contact lenses should work well. They tend to be enzymatic based which does a good job on breaking down proteins.

Pretty sure OP's question is about why the pH predicted by his software is so low (and perhaps whether he should trust that prediction).

Very interesting info about cleaning the electrode.

Wondering if in your water profile setup in profiles in brewfather what you have set the pH to?

Yeah just wondering why it was so low, if it was right, and if so how to fix it. But also very good info to know. Just for information purposes I am using a Kegland ph meter. My tap water is a ph of 7. I just use their storage solution and their powdered packets mixed with RO water to calibrate. My meter is always within .05 of what Brewfather predicts. I will be sure to recalibrate and take a measurement for this brew.

 

[mabrungard]

Should I leave the Patent as roasted or base? Thanks you so much.

Smoked malt is typically a smoked version of a pale or pilsner malt. It's not roasted any more than what it's color rating says (aka: its not a roasted grain)

 

[DuncB]

My base water pH measured is 7.6 but I'm not sure how relevant that is when I have a very bland base water?

 

[Bobby_M]

I was asking you to hit the SHARE button on brewfather and paste the link:

I don't feel like re-creating your whole recipe and water profile to try to troubleshoot your issue when it's probably a setting in your file and I can't find it in my version of the software.

 

[kurds_2408]

I was asking you to hit the SHARE button on brewfather and paste the link:
View attachment 885319

I don't feel like re-creating your whole recipe and water profile to try to troubleshoot your issue when it's probably a setting in your file and I can't find it in my version of the software.

Oh. Sorry. Never done that before. This would be after changing the smoked malts from roasted to base.
https://share.brewfather.app/hfXU4cwLPxgTvY

 

[marc1]

My base water pH measured is 7.6 but I'm not sure how relevant that is when I have a very bland base water?


View attachment 885307

The pH of your water is not relevant for the mash.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm not sure why you had both baking soda and lactic acid going in but those counteract each other. With the baking soda removed, I'm getting a mash pH of 5.46

 

[kurds_2408]

I'm not sure why you had both baking soda and lactic acid going in but those counteract each other. With the baking soda removed, I'm getting a mash pH of 5.46

View attachment 885329

Oh. I've just always left everything on auto. I was trusting Brewfather would make the right choices to get everything where it needs to be. Should I be leaving Baking Soda off unless it seems like I really need it?

 

[Peebee]

... Should I be leaving Baking Soda off unless it seems like I really need it?

Yeap!

Odd, this was only being discussed on another thread within the last few day: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/water-expertise-requested-please.737734/post-10497432

 

[DuncB]

You can turn off the automatic use of sodium bicarb in the settings. But you can still add it manually.

 

[Peebee]

Ooo! Let's have a go to.

Bru'n Water. But it's under input control from another "developing" spreadsheet. But there's not much difference to what @Bobby_M posted, which is what I'd expect, most of what I'm developing comes into play with much higher mineralization rates (such as we use in the UK). This example turned out to be quite lame and didn't use any of my kookier ideas; the piccie above is just plain "Bru'n Water". All save that mention of "normalization" in the top right! I'll be back to that. I'm using 33% Calcium Chloride (for cheese!) ... divide by three for "anhydrous" in grams.

I've use your tap water analysis, but used a "Bru'n Water" ready madeup target water profile ... well, it's close enough to your target profile. A tiny amount (1.5ml) of Lactic Acid (88%) has been added to nullify the alkalinity in the tap water (not visible in the piccie). It doesn't need it really.

All the minerals are added to the mash. None are heldback in this case.

You see "ppm" bandied about. It stands for "piles of poo and manure" ... I don't think I'll go further into what I think of "ppm". Best if we don't discuss "water hardness" and "as CaCO3" either.

"Normalixation"? Best if you do understand this as you are performing "no sparge" and "BIAB" where this procedure is particularily relevant. It's quite simple. You take a value that you know is good, and apply it in other relevant situations. Apparently, the mash should have "50-150ppm calcium" in the water. Ha, "ppm" again ... got to be tosh then. But let's say it's good advise, so I'll stick with "50ppm". It "works" in mashes that, let's say, where half the "batch size" is used as water to mash in. In this case that is 10.6 litres. In a table that will come out as:

Ooo, nice an' pink (it's part of my "developing" spreadsheet). So, I take that value and plug it into a spreadsheet using "no sparge" ("BIAB"):

See, the same amount of "Calcium" (0.55 grams). I've had to reduce the added "Calcium" because more water means more "Calcium" (carried by the water ... "ppm" is a concentration). I've added an extra line to depict the additional "Calcium" being added by the source water, and the same amount not being included in the additions. The weights are "theoretical" and represent "Calcium" ions ... not easy to actually grasp, in yer 'and hence "theoretical". "Calcium" gets the quotation marks 'cos it includes the Magnesium (if any) pretending to be Calcium.

But what's the other figure? "21ppm"! The "Calcium" has been diluted, but the total amount is being kept the same. And it's the same, because the amount of malt it's to react with remains the same! If the "Calcium" is allowed to increase, it will be necessary to increase the "Alkalinity" to neutralize the excess Acidity-Inceasing Hydrogen Ions released from the malt by the "Calcium". Abiding to the observations of "Residual Alkalinity".


Get it?

Many don't for some reason?

End of lesson. School Bell has sounded. Don't run in the corridors. Homework: Essay, "Piles of Poo and Manure", in by next Monday.