Rapid loss of hop aroma (again)

[Ninoid]

It's possible, but would it also depend on the amount and condition of the yeast? From my split-bottle trials, it was clear to me that using fresh yeast (CBC-1 or EC-1118) resulted in faster carbonation (5 to 7 days) than using whatever strain fermented the wort (10-14 days). Warmer temperature (75F) helped when using fresh yeast, but didn't make much difference when using the existing yeast.

Did you use a whole bag of CBC-1 or EC-1118 yeast for a 5 gallon batch? You probably mixed it into the bottling bucket along with the priming sugar?

 

[mac_1103]

Recommended dosing of CBC-1 for bottle conditioning is 2 grams for 5 gallons. I believe that @BrewnWKopperKat doses his bottles individually.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Did you use a whole bag of CBC-1 or EC-1118 yeast for a 5 gallon batch? You probably mixed it into the bottling bucket along with the priming sugar?

I brew 2.5 gal batches on an induction cook top. When bottling, I currently dose individual bottles with table sugar, 1/64 tsp of CBC-1, and 1/64 tsp of ascorbic acid.

eta: a level 1/64 tsp (converted to weight) is a slight over pitch for Lallemand's 2 g in 5 gal recommendation.

eta 2: FWIW, EC-1118 comes in 5 g packages; andCBC-1 comes in 11 g packages.

eta 3: for those who can pressure ferment and bottle condition, an interesting observation on "cap on foam" can be found here (link).

 

[Ninoid]

I brew 2.5 gal batches on an induction cook top. When bottling, I dose individual bottles with table sugar, 1/64 tsp of CBC-1, and 1/64 tsp of ascorbic acid.

eta: a level 1/64 tsp (converted to weight) is a slight over pitch for Lallemand's 2 g in 5 gal recommendation.

eta 2: FWIW, EC-1118 comes in 5 g packages; andCBC-1 comes in 11 g packages.

eta 3: for those who can pressure ferment and bottle condition, an interesting observation on "cap on foam" can be found here (link).

Quite difficult to measure (1/64 tsp). That would be like lightly salting a dish with two fingers.

 

[mac_1103]

Quite difficult to measure (1/64 tsp).

He has a method that works for him.

I personally find it easier to dose individual bottles with liquids. So I rehydrate my CBC-1 in water according to the manufacturer's instructions, mix it with some of the beer and the priming sugar (to avoid osmotic shock), and then add the required volume to each bottle with a syringe. This does require me to do some arithmetic. Correctly.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Quite difficult to measure (1/64 tsp).

In the USA, one can buy range of "tiny" measuring spoons (currently around $5):

• drop = 1/64 tsp.,
• smidgen = 1/32 tsp.,
• pinch = 1/16 tsp.,
• dash= 1/8 tsp.,
• and tad= ¼ tsp.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I personally find it easier to dose individual bottles with liquids. So I rehydrate my CBC-1 in water according to the manufacturer's instructions, mix it with some of the beer and the priming sugar (to avoid osmotic shock), and then add the required volume to each bottle with a syringe. This does require me to do some arithmetic. Correctly.

And that's something I may pursue in the future. For me, and at the moment, the repetition that is necessary for ~ 24 bottles isn't tedious or annoying.

Maybe the 'best of both worlds" is, well, 'both words'. Use an syringe for most bottles and experiment with dosing a smaller number of individual bottles.

 

[Ninoid]

And that's something I may pursue in the future. For me, and at the moment, the repetition that is necessary for ~ 24 bottles isn't tedious or annoying.

Maybe the 'best of both worlds" is, well, 'both words'. Use an syringe for most bottles and experiment with dosing a smaller number of individual bottles.

For CBC-1 yeast, the data sheet says to dose 0.1g/L. I use 0.5L bottles, so I should put 0.05 grams (50mg) of yeast per bottle. I don't have a scale that precise enough to measure it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I don't have a scale that precise enough to measure it.

1) buy a 50g x 0.001g scale (~ $20 in the USA)​

​

2) buy a set of tiny measuring spoons (~ $ 5 in the USA)​

​

3) pick a bottling process that uses weights appropriate for your scale​

​

4) ditch bottles and package the beer in kegs​

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Two items for future readers:

• https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/no-oxygen-how-to-bottle-properly-ultra-sonic-bottling.736131/
• How to Brew, 4e (p 163): beer stored at 41F has an oxidation rate that is 1/4 of beer stored at 77F.

 

[bwible]

I just bottled an APA. Filled these higher than I normally do. If I just fill to the top and remove the bottlng wand it leaves much more space than this. Is this about what you guys are doing?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

hopefully this helps move the discussion forward... and a caution: bottle dimensions may vary based on region.

FWIW, I have a metal ruler (~ 6") with inches on one side and millimeters on the other.

If I just fill to the top and remove the bottlng wand it leaves much more space than this

For that type of fill (use a bottling wand to fill to the top (/1/)), I measured 40 mm of space for a bottle that is similar to yours.

If the bottle you used and the bottle I measured are the same, here's what I measured:

---

/1/ FWIW, I'm currently adverse to the idea of occasional "cracked bottles" (due to overfills) when bottle conditioning.

 

[Ninoid]

I confirm that I now bottle beer with less than 1 cm of headspace and that this has significantly improved the aroma (especially the hop aroma) and taste of the beer. I have not changed anything else in my process and, for now, I do not intend to because I am happy with the results.

 

[Ninoid]

Almost a month after bottling, the hop aroma has pretty much disappeared. Filling the bottles to the top slowed aroma loss by nearly three times, but aroma loss still occurred fairly quickly.

 

[Ninoid]

Let me add to this topic that I am giving up on filling bottles with less than one centimeter of headspace. The loss of hop aroma has slowed down somewhat. Instead of a week, it happens after three weeks, but I can't get the foam anymore, and to me, beer without foam is not beer. I am going back to a headspace of 3 cm.

 

[bwible]

Let me add to this topic that I am giving up on filling bottles with less than one centimeter of headspace. The loss of hop aroma has slowed down somewhat. Instead of a week, it happens after three weeks, but I can't get the foam anymore, and to me, beer without foam is not beer. I am going back to a headspace of 3 cm.

The APA I did above was brewed as a one gallon batch. Brewed 3/21, racked 3/27 onto dry hops, bottled 4/1. I got 10 bottles out of it. I drank the first one on 4/11 and the last one on 5/7. They were all great. I didn’t do any closed transfers or anything fancy with this batch. I did try the vibrating trick using a tumbler/brass polisher and capped on what foam was produced. Not alot. Pictures above show where I filled the bottles to. I was happy with this batch and am going to brew it again next week. With only 10 bottles I guess oxygen didn’t have time to set in and they didn’t go off any. And that was my plan.

 

[Miraculix]

Let me add to this topic that I am giving up on filling bottles with less than one centimeter of headspace. The loss of hop aroma has slowed down somewhat. Instead of a week, it happens after three weeks, but I can't get the foam anymore, and to me, beer without foam is not beer. I am going back to a headspace of 3 cm.

There's most probably no connection between foam and headspace. It's just pure chance.

 

[Ninoid]

There's most probably no connection between foam and headspace. It's just pure chance.

I would think so too if I hadn't already made three different batches this way and all three have the problem with very low foam. Maybe adding yeast during bottling would help, but with the extra work and extended carbonation period, I'm not sure I wouldn't have the problem of exploding bottles, and I don't want to risk that.

 

[Ninoid]

I just bottled an APA. Filled these higher than I normally do. If I just fill to the top and remove the bottlng wand it leaves much more space than this. Is this about what you guys are doing?

View attachment 872344

My headspace was even smaller than yours.

 

[bwible]

Let me add to this topic that I am giving up on filling bottles with less than one centimeter of headspace. The loss of hop aroma has slowed down somewhat. Instead of a week, it happens after three weeks, but I can't get the foam anymore, and to me, beer without foam is not beer. I am going back to a headspace of 3 cm.

When you say can’t get foam, I’m assuming you mean the beer is not carbonated?

Carbonation is a function of 4 things:

- Yeast. There has to be some residual yeast carried into your bottling. I always make a point to intentionally kick up a little sediment/yeast when racking. But this really shouldn’t be a problem unless you’re cold crashing or something before bottling and doing too good of a job getting all the yeast out.

- The amount/type of sugar. I always batch prime, dissolve sugar in a small amount of boiling water, add to all the beer in my bottling vessel, stir. I try to stir a few times when bottling larger batches, like after filling every 6 bottles or so. I use corn sugar 99% of the time. I have used turbinado sugar for an old ale. I use this priming sugar calculator to figure out how much to use:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

-Temperature. Should not be a problem unless you are refrigerating beers right after bottling or something like that.

-Time. Standard belief was allow 2 weeks. I’ve drank beers between 8 and 10 days that were carbonated enough to drink.

Or caps are not well sealed and are allowing co2 to escape.

I can’t see how head space in the bottle affects carbonation.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@bwible : wing capper or bench capper?

 

[bwible]

I h

@bwible : wing capper or bench capper?

I have the Anvil bench capper

 

[Ninoid]

I'm not sure, but I think I've found what the problem is. There's not enough room for the liquid in the bottle to expand, which puts pressure on the cap and it doesn't seal properly. I feel like the cap comes off too easily when I open the bottle. I've been using a bench capper for years and haven't had any problems like that. I'll probably have to chill the beer bottles, open them, pour out some beer, add some sugar, close with a new cap, and re-carbonate.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm not sure, but I think I've found what the problem is. There's not enough room for the liquid in the bottle to expand, which puts pressure on the cap and it doesn't seal properly. I feel like the cap comes off too easily when I open the bottle. I've been using a bench capper for years and haven't had any problems like that. I'll probably have to chill the beer bottles, open them, pour out some beer, add some sugar, close with a new cap, and re-carbonate.

Oh, that makes sense. Then your bench capper is borderline weak.

Good news is, the ultra sonic foam method works with a bigger headspace. So this one should work with your capper.

 

[Ninoid]

Here is definitive confirmation that the problem was with the caps and the bench capper, which apparently wore out after about ten thousand bottles that were capped. In addition, for some time I have been using some colored caps that seal less well. New capper and standard gold caps and no problem with foam.

 

[Bassman2003]

Always good to see a conclusion!

 

[Miraculix]

Here is definitive confirmation that the problem was with the caps and the bench capper, which apparently wore out after about ten thousand bottles that were capped. In addition, for some time I have been using some colored caps that seal less well. New capper and standard gold caps and no problem with foam.

Great News!

 

[Andyandroid]

Maybe try some ascorbic acid?

What does the Ascorbic acid do and how much would you use? TIA!

 

[mac_1103]

As discussed further upthread, ascorbic acid is an antioxidant. You don't need much - a teaspoon in a keg, which is a bit less than a gram per gallon. Lots of threads on the topic if you want more info.