Rapid loss of hop aroma (again)

[Ninoid]

I have a problem with rapid loss of hop aroma (hop smell). I bottle beers without a closed system and without filling the bottles with CO2 (hose and bottle filler from the bottom to the top of the bottle), which naturally carbonize for about three weeks, and then I transfer the bottles to the refrigerator where they stand for another week before I start drinking them. When I start drinking the beer, I feel a fairly strong hop aroma and smell from the glass. However, after just a week, this aroma decreases significantly and soon almost completely disappears.
I know that this could be a problem with oxidation, but I do not have other negative effects of oxidation such as color change (darkening) or change in taste even after several months in the refrigerator. I only lose aroma, primarily hop smell. Although APA/IPA are not my primary styles, I would like to keep the hop aroma longer.
I tried putting a few pellets of hop aroma in the bottle a few days before I intend to drink it and the aroma is really strong, but it is very "green" and not very pleasant.

Is there any way to retain the hop aroma for a longer period without a closed CO2 bottling system?

 

[kevin58]

I have a problem with rapid loss of hop aroma (hop smell).

I just want to say thanks for clarifying in parenthesis what hop aroma was. I was confused for a moment.

Everyone has a different perception of hop bitterness, taste and aroma. Perhaps your perception level is such that you don't smell what others do. Maybe try increasing your aroma hop additions.

 

[day_trippr]

Hmm?
The OP clearly stated they appreciate the hop aroma - until the bottles are more than just a few days old, at which point attenuation is suspected.
That doesn't call their senses into question, imo..

Cheers!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

.

 

[mac_1103]

Maybe try some ascorbic acid?

 

[fluketamer]

is ascorbic acid SOP in hoppy ales?

 

[Bassman2003]

Oxygen in the bottles is your problem and it is difficult at the homebrew level. Maybe your bottling technique can be improved with filling more (less headspace) and 'cap-on-foam'?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

How to bottle NEIPA (without kegging)

 

[Ninoid]

How to bottle NEIPA (without kegging)

This certainly makes sense.
I open the lid of the fermenter and insert the tube into the beer and pull it with my mouth and pour it into the bottles using a bottling wand, which means the beer is exposed to air the entire time.
When I started home brewing many years ago I used a fermenter with a spigot, but I didn't like it because a fair amount of beer stays below the spigot level and I wasn't sure if the spigot was properly cleaned. Plus, I had to loosen the cap that I put in instead of an airlock anyway because it would create a vacuum in the plastic fermenter and the beer wouldn't flow so air would still get into the fermenter.

How did you solve that?

I soon switched to an automatic siphon, but I quickly gave up on it because it introduces air into the beer (I couldn't get it to work without it even though I was using an automatic siphon from a well-known brand).

 

[Ninoid]

How to bottle NEIPA (without kegging)

As I understand it, the airlock is removed to allow air into the fermenter during bottling to prevent a vacuum from forming.
What keeps the CO2 from escaping?

 

[Ninoid]

Oxygen in the bottles is your problem and it is difficult at the homebrew level. Maybe your bottling technique can be improved with filling more (less headspace) and 'cap-on-foam'?

I tried using anti-oxygen caps once, but I didn't notice any difference in the beer.

 

[Ninoid]

I read further in the text that the anti-oxygen caps need to be activated. I didn't know that. How do I do that? I keep the caps in Starsan until I put them on the bottle. I guess that activates them.

 

[micraftbeer]

Maybe try experimenting with recipe tweaks on your hop additions. Everyone's experience is probably different, which is why I recommend you try yourself to find what you like. I'll share my experience, and I'm sure someone will chime in that they don't agree and their experience is the opposite. That's how this goes!

When I whirlpool, I get great hop expression. But I find it very short lived.

Dry hopping works better for me, but it can be tough sometimes to avoid overloading and getting hop burn where it turns somewhat bitter from hop flavor.

I frequently have some component of late hop additions, around 3 minutes. I find the aroma is not as impressive as dry or whirlpool, but i find it sticks around a lot longer.

 

[fluketamer]

so far the best aroma and endurance i have got is from adding the dry hops at high kresuen just after peak fermentation and sealing it up, purging the head a few times then spunding . . i then jumped the beer to a purged keg 6 days later.

since then i have tried a few different things that so far are not working as well for me . such as keg hopping - no burn problem just not as much hop aroma. and also cold dry hopping at 50 for 3 days as per janish but that isnt giving me the same punch as high kreusen. possibly i am getting less o2 exposure from yeast scavenging when high kreusen dry hopping.

i am prolly going back to hopping towards the end of fermentation instead of after frementaion.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Kegging has entered the discussion..

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

How did you solve that?

If I have time over the next couple of days, I will review what you posted and compare it to what I'm doing. eta (about 3 hours later): given the amount of additional esearch that's being done by OP, this probably won't happen.

@micraftbeer has a good observation on how techniques in earlier steps can have an impact on the shelf-life of the beer.

 

[Miraculix]

I have a problem with rapid loss of hop aroma (hop smell). I bottle beers without a closed system and without filling the bottles with CO2 (hose and bottle filler from the bottom to the top of the bottle), which naturally carbonize for about three weeks, and then I transfer the bottles to the refrigerator where they stand for another week before I start drinking them. When I start drinking the beer, I feel a fairly strong hop aroma and smell from the glass. However, after just a week, this aroma decreases significantly and soon almost completely disappears.
I know that this could be a problem with oxidation, but I do not have other negative effects of oxidation such as color change (darkening) or change in taste even after several months in the refrigerator. I only lose aroma, primarily hop smell. Although APA/IPA are not my primary styles, I would like to keep the hop aroma longer.
I tried putting a few pellets of hop aroma in the bottle a few days before I intend to drink it and the aroma is really strong, but it is very "green" and not very pleasant.

Is there any way to retain the hop aroma for a longer period without a closed CO2 bottling system?

There are two stages which you have to have in check.

Stage one, bottle with a bottling wand (stick) and a flow velocity that does not introduce bubbles into the beer during the filling of the bottle. This stage is actually not that important....

Second, remove as much air from the headspace as possible. Fill the bottles up until five mm below the rim. This will take care of expansion of liquid due to temperature changes while minimising oxygen within the headspace. Your yeast takes care about your oxygen in solution as you're carbonating naturally. It cannot take care of the oxygen that kreeps in from the headspace once the sugar is all eaten up.

I do this and since I started, hop aroma for ages from my bottles.

 

[Miraculix]

I read further in the text that the anti-oxygen caps need to be activated. I didn't know that. How do I do that? I keep the caps in Starsan until I put them on the bottle. I guess that activates them.

Skip these, they simply don't do what they claim to do....

 

[mac_1103]

When I started home brewing many years ago I used a fermenter with a spigot, but I didn't like it because a fair amount of beer stays below the spigot level and I wasn't sure if the spigot was properly cleaned.

Put a block of wood under the fermenter so the trub settles away from the spigot. Then (gently) move the block of wood to the other side when you want to transfer the beer. Most of the trub will stay where it is and you'll leave very little beer behind.

As I understand it, the airlock is removed to allow air into the fermenter during bottling to prevent a vacuum from forming.
What keeps the CO2 from escaping?

Nothing.

I had to loosen the cap that I put in instead of an airlock anyway because it would create a vacuum in the plastic fermenter and the beer wouldn't flow so air would still get into the fermenter.

How did you solve that?

Don't remove the airlock. Just because you're not kegging doesn't mean you can't save CO2 from fermentation in a balloon or a couple of these. In fact, you can purge any vessel that you can seal air tight. I have put priming sugar in an empty carboy and purged it with fermentation gas and then done a gravity closed-loop transfer from fermenter to carboy, followed by bottling from the carboy with captured CO2 attached. (edit - if you prime individual bottles you can skip the transfer to a second vessel and bottle straight from the fermenter; either way you should definitely use a bottling wand as mentioned)

One other thing - I've only had a kegerator for about a year, but I started buying used kegs a while ago. I've naturally carbonated in a keg with a floating dip tube and then bottled with a counterpressure filler. You need to be able to get the keg and bottles really cold for that to work, and I'm not really sure it was worth the trouble, but kegs also make great bottling buckets.

 

[Ninoid]

There are two stages which you have to have in check.

Stage one, bottle with a bottling wand (stick) and a flow velocity that does not introduce bubbles into the beer during the filling of the bottle. This stage is actually not that important....

Second, remove as much air from the headspace as possible. Fill the bottles up until five mm below the rim. This will take care of expansion of liquid due to temperature changes while minimising oxygen within the headspace. Your yeast takes care about your oxygen in solution as you're carbonating naturally. It cannot take care of the oxygen that kreeps in from the headspace once the sugar is all eaten up.

I do this and since I started, hop aroma for ages from my bottles.

There was already your post about how little space above the beer in the bottle makes a big difference. I haven't started using that yet because it makes my bottling time longer and creates a mess when it overflows, but I go with the line of least resistance and leave a few centimeters of space. I will have to seriously work on that.

 

[Ninoid]

https://brulosophy.com/2021/08/02/c...tter-to-a-non-purged-keg-exbeeriment-results/

https://brulosophy.com/2020/07/13/c...ager-to-a-non-purged-keg-exbeeriment-results/

When I read these two Brulosophy tests, it seems to me that the transfer method doesn't play that big of a role and that my method (open system without CO2) is just fine. True, these are both styles where hop aroma is not crucial.

 

[mac_1103]

Read less Brulosophy. Your beers will thank you.

 

[day_trippr]

Seriously.

 

[Ninoid]

https://brulosophy.com/2020/06/08/c...2oCK7JJ5AmfNr9a5_bZb9Mk_LPQwV0gc0olQlBV57zjno

Another interesting Brulosophy experiment that offers a super simple solution is sodium metabisulfite. I'm familiar with this chemical because it's used in wine (it stops fermentation and turns wine into vinegar), but it's also known to cause headaches, and I'm afraid it would prevent the natural carbonation of beer. Quantity of 0.3 grams per batch of beer doesn't seem like much to me.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Ninoid : given the list of personas (in addition to me) posting here, it's doubtful that there's new knowledge in 2020 Brulosophy articles.

If you post your proposed fermentation / bottling process after you have done your research, each of may have additional insights.

 

[Bassman2003]

Sodium Meta is not general practice for bottling. Meta is usually used before the mash and expended before the yeast with oxygen. I think best practices SOP is going to be your best way forward.

 

[Bobby_M]

https://brulosophy.com/2020/06/08/c...2oCK7JJ5AmfNr9a5_bZb9Mk_LPQwV0gc0olQlBV57zjno

Another interesting Brulosophy experiment that offers a super simple solution is sodium metabisulfite. I'm familiar with this chemical because it's used in wine (it stops fermentation and turns wine into vinegar), but it's also known to cause headaches, and I'm afraid it would prevent the natural carbonation of beer. Quantity of 0.3 grams per batch of beer doesn't seem like much to me.

It's an anti-oxidant at low concentrations. I don't know where you got that it turns wine into vinegar. Acetobacter bacteria turns wine and any other alcoholic beverage into vinegar and sulfites would actually stunt that process, not cause it.

 

[Miraculix]

There was already your post about how little space above the beer in the bottle makes a big difference. I haven't started using that yet because it makes my bottling time longer and creates a mess when it overflows, but I go with the line of least resistance and leave a few centimeters of space. I will have to seriously work on that.

It's really easy, just bottle above a bowl and the drippings get caught in there.

The beauty of bottle carbonation is that the oxygen in the headspace is literally the only remaining real root of your problem. You can try around a hundred different things or just remove it and be done with it.

 

[fluketamer]

It's really easy, just bottle above a bowl and the drippings get caught in there.

The beauty of bottle carbonation is that the oxygen in the headspace is literally the only remaining real root of your problem. You can try around a hundred different things or just remove it and be done with it.

when i used to bottle i used to do it over the open dishwasher to catch spills like this homebrewer does:

 

[Miraculix]

when i used to bottle i used to do it over the open dishwasher to catch spills like this homebrewer does:
View attachment 869437

That is the biggest bottling hack ever just after putting the dishwasher on highest temperature and filling it with bottles to be sanitised by it.

I just happen to have no dish washer in my current flat .

 

[Ninoid]

It's really easy, just bottle above a bowl and the drippings get caught in there.

The beauty of bottle carbonation is that the oxygen in the headspace is literally the only remaining real root of your problem. You can try around a hundred different things or just remove it and be done with it.

Yes, I understand that I just need to fill the bottle to the top. I've read a lot about this problem and concluded that most of the oxygen in the beer can be removed by letting the yeast use it up during natural carbonation.
I came across a suggestion to turn the bottles upside down so that the oxygen from the headspace will dissolve in the beer and be used up by the yeast. This procedure is most commonly used with wine.

 

[Miraculix]

Yes, I understand that I just need to fill the bottle to the top. I've read a lot about this problem and concluded that most of the oxygen in the beer can be removed by letting the yeast use it up during natural carbonation.
I came across a suggestion to turn the bottles upside down so that the oxygen from the headspace will dissolve in the beer and be used up by the yeast. This procedure is most commonly used with wine.

But wine is not bottle carbed.

The turning around might increase surface area between air and liquid, so there's a chance that more oxygen gets dissolved into the liquid during the time that the yeast is active in the bottle, but I don't think that all of it goes into solution within this short time frame. And the portion that's being left over will oxidise your hops later on.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I do this and since I started, hop aroma for ages from my bottles.

For those interesting in A/B testing, how long is "ages"?

As for process, it sounds like the only change to the classic bottling process is

remove as much air from the headspace as possible. Fill the bottles up until five mm below the rim

So use existing yeast and bottle condition at ambient temperature for 2 to three weeks. What is your typical temperature range for ambient temperature?

 

[Miraculix]

For those interesting in A/B testing, how long is "ages"?

As for process, it sounds like the only change to the classic bottling process is

So use existing yeast and bottle condition at ambient temperature for 2 to three weeks. What is your typical temperature range for ambient temperature?

I've had still good hop aroma after 3-4 months. Of course it will change a little bit but it won't disappear. My bottles behave similarly to commercially filled bottles that were capped on co2 foam. Ambient for me is between18-23 c.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

That looks like a good description for anyone who wants to do A/B testing of their bottling process.

Thanks @Miraculix !

 

[ExpatPete]

Read less Brulosophy. Your beers will thank you.

If you don't mind my asking why do you say that? I kind of enjoy Martin. I don't really learn a ton since most are inconclusive tests, but I like watching them anyway. But I am a relatively new brewer (30 brews) so learning about brewing is a target rich environment for me!

 

[Ninoid]

But wine is not bottle carbed.

The turning around might increase surface area between air and liquid, so there's a chance that more oxygen gets dissolved into the liquid during the time that the yeast is active in the bottle, but I don't think that all of it goes into solution within this short time frame. And the portion that's being left over will oxidise your hops later on.

Yes. That could happen. I've turned bottles upside down once before because I was trying to induce more carbonation in a beer that was pretty flat, and I noticed dried yeast residue on the cap when I put the bottles upright in the fridge.

 

[Bassman2003]

@ExpatPete It is a touchy subject but how useful is learning some "wrong" things when you are new to anything? Better to learn the right ways from the beginning even if they might be more complex or difficult imho. Yes, Martin is a pleasant person. They are not all bad, but it seems the more one knows, the less one needs Brulosophy.

 

[ExpatPete]

@ExpatPete It is a touchy subject but how useful is learning some "wrong" things when you are new to anything? Better to learn the right ways from the beginning even if they might be more complex or difficult imho.

Right. Fair enough. I am spending more time in this forum HBT. There are some great threads to learn from.

 

[ExpatPete]

Right. Fair enough. I am spending more time in this forum HBT. There are some great threads to learn from.

And to add to that last comment I am in a brewing club in SW Virginia, The Star City Brewers Guild. There are some fantastic brewers in the Guild. Being able to discuss and discuss while sampling a brew is a great way to learn.