Rack, rack and rack

[Nate]

What's with all the racking? lol. I see numerous people racking 2 or 3 times in the first couple months. It seems to be the general consensus that 2 months (or more) on the lees does not have any significant effect on the mead. One of the most popular meads out there (JAOM) sits on the lees for at least 2 months and everyone raves about it. Our local meadery bottles on the lees so what's the deal? I've also seen reports of mead bottled on the lees opened years later and it's been awesome. Every racking is obviously an oxygen and other contamination potential.

I can see doing it if your mead hasn't cleared after a couple months and you're bulking it beyond this but why all the racking prior to?

 

[BeeDeeEff]

I would only assume that not everyone agrees with the general consensus as you've outlined it.

 

[Nate]

I would only assume that not everyone agrees with the general consensus as you've outlined it.

From How to Brew:

As a final note on this subject, I should mention that by brewing with healthy yeast in a well-prepared wort, many experienced brewers, myself included, have been able to leave a beer in the primary fermenter for several months without any evidence of autolysis. Autolysis is not inevitable, but it is lurking.


From Wiki:

Studies have shown that the chemical reaction of autolysis, and its impact on the wine, starts to become noticeable after 18 months and will continue to impart traits for at least 5 years.


Please show me where the scientific consensus states that undesirable flavors are imparted prior to 2 months...

 

[BeeDeeEff]

Dunno, but if people are racking it off the lees, I'm guessing they want it off the lees. You were asking why people do it, that's why.

 

[bernardsmith]

Two quick thoughts. The generous thought is that some yeasts are said to be notorious for producing off flavors if you allow the wine or mead to sit on the lees for three or four months. Personally, I have not found this to be a noticeable problem but then I have a very uneducated palate so the problem may be with my ability to detect flavors as undesirable.
The less generous thought is that many mead makers come to mead making as brewers and brewing means that you consider your beer ready to bottle (or at least rack ) after a few weeks in the primary. Problem with mead is that mead ain't beer and sur lees (allowing the wine to sit on the lees) is not in and of itself bad for the wine or mead - it can produce additional complex flavors.
Bottom line - whatever people do if they rack soon and often they are removing active and viable yeast cells and they are removing nutrients from the remaining yeast. If they have a reason for that protocol so be it. If they are simply racking because they think that's what they OUGHT to do then they are likely working against themselves..

 

[LBussy]

Sometimes I get a stuck fermentation - racking helps. Sometimes I want the lees for my next batch. Sometimes I have fruit I want to remove from the fermentation. Sometimes I want to rack the must onto fruit. Sometimes I have a primary vessel for fermentation well suited for vigorous fermentation but I want to change over to one more suited (less headspace) for a lengthy sit. There's all sorts of reasons to rack, all sorts not to rack. Whatever works for you - cool.

 

[clone63]

Rack off of 71B. Notoriously nasty lees.
Fruit should be racked off of.
Seeking clarity, racking can help...
Long term aging, definitely rack. Autolysis is reeeally gross.
Each specific instance will be different. Half the time, no, it probably doesn't "need" any racking. Doesn't really hurt though, mead is fairly resistant to oxidation.

 

[Yooper]

Rack off of 71B. Notoriously nasty lees.
Fruit should be racked off of.
Seeking clarity, racking can help...
Long term aging, definitely rack. Autolysis is reeeally gross.
Each specific instance will be different. Half the time, no, it probably doesn't "need" any racking. Doesn't really hurt though, mead is fairly resistant to oxidation.

That's what I was going to say. Some yeast strains are notorious for horrible off flavors, while others aren't so bad.

Ideally, racking would happen whenever lees are 1/4" thick or more (called 'gross lees') or if there are any lees at all at the 60 day mark. Once 60 days go by with NO new lees at all, even a dusting, and the mead is totally clear, it can be bottled.

Mead is pretty resistant to oxidation, but using campden/sulfite is a good step if you're concerned about racking more than once or twice.

 

[Nate]

Rack off of 71B. Notoriously nasty lees.
Fruit should be racked off of.
Seeking clarity, racking can help...
Long term aging, definitely rack. Autolysis is reeeally gross.
Each specific instance will be different. Half the time, no, it probably doesn't "need" any racking. Doesn't really hurt though, mead is fairly resistant to oxidation.

In 10 plus years of brewing beer, this is the first I've heard of some yeasts being bad for throwing off flavors and others being fine. Can someone expand on this? Which yeasts are fine sitting on cake and which ones aren't? 71B notorious?

I'm new to meads and beers typically don't sit on the yeast for more than a few weeks. My mead policy so far has been that if it's clear and gravity is constant at 2 months... bottle. If it isn't clear and/or still fermenting, rack it and wait until it clears and finishes... then bottle.

 

[theDREWery]

Champagne yeasts tend to be good for sur lie ageing, they can give off nutty, or even caramel flavors.

One yeast I rack quickly off of is Red Star Cote de Blanc. I don't really use it for meads, but cider or even cyser get a nice buttery texture out of it. If you leave it on the lees, that goes away as the yeast clean up after themselves.

Also, I wouldn't call JAOM popular, it's just very common for folks new to meadmaking because it's not intimidating and it's quick. I don't see any meadmakers years into the hobby cramming orange chunks and cloves into 6 gallon carboy.

 

[LBussy]

In 10 plus years of brewing beer, this is the first I've heard of some yeasts being bad for throwing off flavors and others being fine. Can someone expand on this? Which yeasts are fine sitting on cake and which ones aren't? 71B notorious?

Hey don't feel bad ... I've been brewing since 1991 and this is the first time I've heard it put that way too. I use 71B often since it's got such a wide temperature tolerance (59-89° F) and is good for wines/meads which are intended to mature more quickly. It's perfect for SP for instance. It's because of the way I use it that I would never have had the occasion to leave a wine/mead on the lees very long so maybe that's why I've never learned about this characteristic.

 

[Yooper]

Hey don't feel bad ... I've been brewing since 1991 and this is the first time I've heard it put that way too. I use 71B often since it's got such a wide temperature tolerance (59-89° F) and is good for wines/meads which are intended to mature more quickly. It's perfect for SP for instance. It's because of the way I use it that I would never have had the occasion to leave a wine/mead on the lees very long so maybe that's why I've never learned about this characteristic.

71B is a favorite of mine as well. The reason I love it is that it metabolizes more malic acid than many other strains, so if you've got grapes or apples (especially apples) that are high in malic, the 71B will metabolize much of it, so you may not even need to do MLF after.

Maybe that is one of the reasons that the lees give bad flavor after lengthy contact? That I don't know, and it's just a guess.

Remember too that when winemakers age sur lie, the lees are stirred back into the wine and not left to autolyze or be under pressure. Since I never age sur lie (at least not on purpose!), I haven't compared the difference to stirring with lees over time in a yeast strain such as EC-1118.

Another thing to keep in mind that while keeping ale on the yeast cake for longer than "traditional" may not create autolysis, wines and meads are often 15% ABV by the time they would be aging. That high of an ABV would be a very harsh environment for the yeast and more cells would die, and so autolysis would be more likely in a wine or mead vs. a lower ABV ale. That's not to say it happens fast at all, but that's one of the reasons "60 days or lees 1/4 thick" as a racking guideline came about.

 

[Maylar]

71B-1122 has a reputation for being prone to autolysis and people have become paranoid about leaving their ciders or meads on its lees. I blame the internet for that. I've used it for cider and cysers with great success and even after 2 months of primary have had no issues.

 

[Nate]

I'm also using 71B for most of our meads so far. As I said, I've picked a 2 month policy on racking (just once) but may drop that back to one month. Based on everything I've read, all the scientific data seems to point to 2 months being very safe but the internet "opinions" seem all over the place.

Anyhow, thanks to all for your input!

 

[bernardsmith]

My go to yeast for both cider and mead is 71B but since my batches are typically 1 to 3 gallons and occasionally, 5 the amount of pressure the lees are under is quite limited. There is an enormous difference (in my opinion) between a carboy that weighs 50 lbs (how many PSI is that ?) and a tank that contains 50 barrels.. That said, I strongly agree with Yooper: rack after sixty days (2 months) if there is about 1/4 inch of gross lees but I am happy to delay second or third rackings for twice that time if all I have is a dusting of sediment.

 

[theDREWery]

Another thing to keep in mind, is that commercially, sur lie is not performed with goss lees (from primary). Most settlement after that is a mere dusting.

But i have tasted apfelwine made with EC 1118 and left on the gross lees for a year. It was tilted and swirled every week, and was amazing.

 

[Nate]

Also, I wouldn't call JAOM popular, it's just very common for folks new to meadmaking because it's not intimidating and it's quick. I don't see any meadmakers years into the hobby cramming orange chunks and cloves into 6 gallon carboy.

Gotcha... JAOM isn't popular and experienced mead makers don't use real fruit and spices. lol.

 

[TandemTails]

A little late to the party but I do primary fermentation in buckets and like to get my mead into glass containers once primary fermentation has stopped. This way I can really reduce the headspace and exposure to large surface areas of oxygen.

 

[Dr_Floyd]

I believe the idea is correct, leaving it on the lees can produce off flavors due to autolysis, however I'm to understand that at volumes home brewers produce it's mostly a non-issue leaving aside yeast that famously produces off-flavors. I've been told that at large volumes the intense pressure exerted by all the liquid on the lees can accelerate autolysis. I'd imagine it breaks down the dead yeast cells faster due to the increased pressure and temperature. So a 5 gallon batch isn't really squeezing the dead yeast cells nearly as much as a 100 gallon batch.

 

[Ty520]

The way i see it, you have to rack regardless, so why not just do it early and avoid taking any chances (unless the recipe you're following might specifically call for keeping it on the lees for a time...to adsorb diacetyls, or whatnot

 

[Redeemer]

Gotcha... JAOM isn't popular and experienced mead makers don't use real fruit and spices. lol.

I don't use bread yeast cause, WHY, when there are so many other options available? I want it ready in 6 to 8 weeks. But the JOAM concept, modified, I like very much and use all the time. Though every time I post about one of them, folks rush to remind me I didn't actually make a JAOM. Ok, but orange, honey and yeast are a good foundation for a great mead and I likely never would have thought to do it until I read about JOAM, why it works etc. I feel like its pretty popular, and using TOSNA along with other techniques, can be made better and faster. Tat is a win in my book.