Questions on sparging & efficiency with recipes

[snarf7]

I've got a few questions on this, but let me start simple... I understand the basic principal behind sparging but I'm uncertain if I'm doing it correctly, or half-assed or not well at all. So until I get to that point...

When you're reading a recipe and it doesn't explicitly say "sparge at 170 degrees" or something similar, is it implied? Or are most recipes written for just the mash & boil and if they don't say anything about sparging then it is designed assuming you will not be doing that?

 

[cmybeer]

I'm curious to see this recipe and where it came from.
I guess if it someones personal recipe who does full volume mashes then it would just be mash and boil but usually any good recipe will have volumes for mash water and sparge water that get you to your boil volume. Guess it's hard to answer the question without seeing what you're talking about.

 

[snarf7]

I'm curious to see this recipe and where it came from.
I guess if it someones personal recipe who does full volume mashes then it would just be mash and boil but usually any good recipe will have volumes for mash water and sparge water that get you to your boil volume. Guess it's hard to answer the question without seeing what you're talking about.

There's literally hundreds of thousands of recipes on the internet. Some of them are detailed, but many of them are not, hence the question

 

[SEndorf]

There's literally hundreds of thousands of recipes on the internet. Some of them are detailed, but many of them are not, hence the question

Most recipes I examine are not detailed.
They simply state - "mash at xxx"
Which means you need to plug the recipe into Beersmith (or similar) and allow your profiles in the program to calculate the proper mash and sparge volumes for your system. You can always assume a sparge unless otherwise indicated.

 

[chickypad]

For the most part you should ignore the part of a recipe that talks about volumes, sparge, etc. You need to adapt any recipe to your own process, efficiency, batch volume, etc. That might be full volume BIAB, or it could include fly sparging or batch sparging. Unless you're talking about a kit most recipes are not going to specify this stuff because everyone's system and losses are going to be different.

 

[snarf7]

For the most part you should ignore the part of a recipe that talks about volumes, sparge, etc. You need to adapt any recipe to your own process, efficiency, batch volume, etc. That might be full volume BIAB, or it could include fly sparging or batch sparging. Unless you're talking about a kit most recipes are not going to specify this stuff because everyone's system and losses are going to be different.

Good point, you always have to adapt on the fly. OK well given my minimal stovetop setup and the fact that I'm brewing small batches (1-2 gal) what would be my best plan of attack? So far I've been doing BIAB where I steep some speciality grains up front, then mash at temp. I then usually pull the bag, place in collander and leave over the pot. Due to my small volumes I can't add a ton of sparge water over top, but I could do a little if that would help? Or another technique I've read on is to heat the pot to sparge temp then re-dunk the bag, swirl around a bit then colander and drain again...not sure on timing for that one though?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

OK well given my minimal stovetop setup and the fact that I'm brewing small batches (1-2 gal) what would be my best plan of attack?

I'll offer a "keep it simple" approach (which I use for my BIAB batches): heat the water to strike temperature, add all the crushed grains, let it sit for 30 - 60 minutes, then remove the bag and let it drip.

So far I've been doing BIAB where I steep some speciality grains up front, then mash at temp.

I will put the specialty grains in the bag with the base malts.

I then usually pull the bag, place in collander and leave over the pot.

I do this also. It does impact efficiency, so you may need to adjust the amount of grain used. The other approach is to get heat resistant gloves and squeeze the wort out of the bag.

Due to my small volumes I can't add a ton of sparge water over top, but I could do a little if that would help?

If you find that you are adding water to get to your pre-boil volume, pouring the water through the grains (sparging) will extract some sugars. This will help reach both your pre-boil volume and pre-boil OG.

Part of "dailing-in" recipes on your system is adjusting the amount of water and the amount of grains to get to your pre-boil volume and pre-boil OG without additions.

Or another technique I've read on is to heat the pot to sparge temp then re-dunk the bag, swirl around a bit then colander and drain again...not sure on timing for that one though?

To me, this feels like extra work to make BIAB brewing feel like brewing with a mash tun.

 

[chickypad]

Yep, agree with BWKKat. If you've been doing full volume mashes with no sparge you don't have to add a sparge step just because that's how the person writing the recipe does it. For my 3 gal stovetop batches I do add a dunk sparge step like you mention, but that's only because I don't have room in the 5 gal pot I use unless it's a very small beer. Fully draining or squeezing the bag will mean less wort lost to grain absorption, which will make up for efficiency that you may lose by not sparging. Mash all your grains together as mentioned above. Just be sure you've got a large bag so the grains are loose in the pot and you can stir them well. Most folks get a bag that lines the whole pot.

There might be a few recipes that call for special mash steps - like multiple rests at certain temps, or a decoction mash. In those cases to exactly replicate the beer you might want to adjust your process. But the majority of recipes are single infusion and you can do your normal thing.

 

[snarf7]

Thanks for the replies guys, that's helpful

I do this also. It does impact efficiency, so you may need to adjust the amount of grain used. The other approach is to get heat resistant gloves and squeeze the wort out of the bag.

Is there some forumla for determining how much more? Like if a recipe calls for a sparge step, is there some estimate of how efficient that is (i.e. increases efficiency by 15%)? And if so would I just increase the grains by the same percentage? (15%)

 

[Rodent]

Is there some forumla for determining how much more?

This is where your experience brewing with your equipment comes into play. Taking good measurements and notes during each brew day will get you this - there is no other way to accurately obtain this, as everybody else is brewing with their gear and their workflows

Once you have your numbers, you can do the math by hand/spreadsheet/brewing_app to adjust quantities to arrive at your target values when utilizing your gear and workflows

It's highly recommended to take detailed notes of every brew, and have details available to reflect upon when things go awesome or down the loo. This will also help you when making adjustments for a new recipe you have not brewed before

 

[balrog]

Getting the volumes right is the biggest issue. I made markings only to have issues measuring when pot was not perfectly level. There's always issues. Even the fact that I BIAB and drip, no sparge, makes a diff if I allow 10min for dripping or 20min. Not much I'll grant you but that extra 10-12oz in that extra 10min drip does show up. Parity is never lost in the universe, no matter what they say about losing socks in the dryer.

 

[snarf7]

This is where your experience brewing with your equipment comes into play. Taking good measurements and notes during each brew day will get you this - there is no other way to accurately obtain this, as everybody else is brewing with their gear and their workflows

Once you have your numbers, you can do the math by hand/spreadsheet/brewing_app to adjust quantities to arrive at your target values when utilizing your gear and workflows

It's highly recommended to take detailed notes of every brew, and have details available to reflect upon when things go awesome or down the loo. This will also help you when making adjustments for a new recipe you have not brewed before

Makes sense, and I am keeping notes of every brew. Do you think starting out with an additional 10% grain or so would be a good starting point to work from though?

 

[doug293cz]

... Or another technique I've read on is to heat the pot to sparge temp then re-dunk the bag, swirl around a bit then colander and drain again...not sure on timing for that one though?

Putting the bag back into the original wort does nothing useful. It's equivalent to putting dishes back into the soapy water to "rinse" them.

If you dunk the grain bag into water, stir, and then drain, that is a dunk sparge, which is a type of batch sparge. This will extract more sugar from the spent grain, and thus improve your lauter efficiency (and therefore your mash efficiency.) You can heat the sparge water if you wish, but you don't have to. The sparge will be just as effective either way.

Brew on

 

[chickypad]

Ah, didn't see that. I thought the OP was talking about a dunk sparge with new sparge water. Yeah, that makes no sense.

Makes sense, and I am keeping notes of every brew. Do you think starting out with an additional 10% grain or so would be a good starting point to work from though?

10% compared to what? The recipe with the author's assumed efficiency? Squeezing vs. not squeezing? You really need to do a couple batches with good measurements and keep the process consistent, then you will know how much you need to adjust any given recipe. If you have some prior recipes with good numbers we could help you figure out your typical efficiency. If you don't know then I would just select a number for this next batch, say 75% efficiency, and then adjust from there next time. It helps to use software and go by grainbill percentages not total amounts.

 

[Rodent]

I started out measuring all of the steps utilizing plain water, and identifying where I had unused water remaining. An example would be how much water remained after I drained my boil kettle (without tilting) thru the spigot, or how much water remained in my mash tun after draining. This remaining quantity needs to be added to my total water needs in addition to the quantity adjusted for boil-off rate.

I also added an amount for grain absorption per pound of grain, and use this as a multiplier for the total grain used. This amount will also need to be added to your pre-boil water total.

For grain quantity, I utilized a 65% efficiency for my target mashing and then worked the number backwards to get to the quantities I'd need based on the OG specified for a recipe. OG diluted with the added boil-off water gives me the gravity reading I target to have prior to lighting my burner to start the boil process

Once you take gravity readings, you'll learn if 65% was on target or hi/low. Adjust to suit for the next batch, and again for the next batch, and so on. You'll also see your % improve as you gain experience and find ways to improve your process.

 

[Rodent]

and don't worry too much if your wort gravity is a bit hi or low for your first brew or two. you'll still make beer, but it might not as heavy or light as the recipe you were using targeted.

revise your number based on what you measure and your next brew will be closer to target

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks for the replies guys, that's helpful



Is there some forumla for determining how much more? Like if a recipe calls for a sparge step, is there some estimate of how efficient that is (i.e. increases efficiency by 15%)? And if so would I just increase the grains by the same percentage? (15%)

Yes, there are some formulas that will tell you this, but the problem is you need details on the recipe originator's process and your own in order to use them. All else being equal, a single batch sparge will have a mash efficiency about 8 percentage points higher than a no-sparge process. The chances of "all else being equal" between your system/process and someone else's are about zero.

If you are doing no-sparge, the easiest thing to do is to add about 10% more grain (at the same ratio of grain types as the recipe) to start with. Have some DME handy if you undershoot your SG, and dilute with water if you overshoot your SG. Then if you overshot, use a little less grain the next time around, or a little more grain if you undershot. Once you get the input data you need for your brewing software somewhat stable, you can then use your software to adjust the recipes more accurately prior to actually brewing.

Brew on