Question regarding autosiphon and bottling

[ChucknBeer]

Hi guys,

I always read about moving your beer from your fermenter to a bottling bucket before adding the sugar for carbonation.

Has anyone used the same fermenter to add sugar/autosiphon/bottling your beer?

I have only made 2 batches, but both included crashcold and the yeast cake at the bottom of the fermenter has been very thick and consistent... I don't think that adding some liquidified sugar and stirring a bit could cause a major issue with the yeast going into suspension and, even if this happens, the consequences would be minimal compared with infection or oxidation...

What do you think?

 

[frazier]

I think that if you stir up the sugar solution enough to get it well mixed, you will also agitate the yeast. The energy cost of transferriing to another bucket for bottling is really pretty minimal.

By all means, try it your way if you want. Don't expect it to start a trend though .

Cheers,

 

[IslandLizard]

Stirring up your diligently cold crashed clear beer will re-suspend the yeast, and most definitely when you mix in your sugar solution homogeneously. When I bottle, I always add the sugar solution during racking, after a gallon has transferred. Then a good stir at the end, without introducing excessive air into the beer.

If you keep sanitary conditions and don't splash, your beer is fine with racking. If you're worried about oxidation, you should find a way to transfer under CO2, which is harder from buckets fermentors than from carboys or kegs, but not impossible.

Don't forget to save some of that yeast cake for your next batch.

 

[JohnSand]

Palmer describes the method in How to Brew. He suggests letting it settle for 30 minutes after stirring gently, iirc.
I just bottle prime using Domino Dots. No bottling bucket to clean and sanitize, no heating and cooling.

 

[peterj]

Yeah I'm with frazier. The risk of infection or oxidation from transferring to a properly sanitized bottling bucket are pretty minimal. While the risk of mixing a bunch of yeast and trub into your beer or not mixing the sugar in well enough are higher. But you could try it. You'd probably just end up with a lot more sediment in your bottles.

 

[ChucknBeer]

Palmer describes the method in How to Brew. He suggests letting it settle for 30 minutes after stirring gently, iirc.
I just bottle prime using Domino Dots. No bottling bucket to clean and sanitize, no heating and cooling.

Interesting info, thanks.

Now I do a quick search and the same question pops several times in the forum :/

I want to try eliminating variables from my brewing process, since my Stout is too acidic for my taste and it doesn't feel normal to me.

I will stop using recycled bottles, since I might be having problems with proper sanitation, and maybe skipping the bucket transfer might also help. If the beer comes too cloudy but with no acidic taste, its a win for me

 

[wilserbrewer]

I have added priming solution to the fermenter without issue. Stir gently and allow an hour for diffusion of the solution.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=diffusion&spell=1

Properly cleaned and sanitized bottles should be no different than any other bottle IMO.....good luck happy brewing....

 

[IslandLizard]

"Sanitation will become second nature" [sic] according to Palmer, and you will master it in not time or else...

Even the new bottles you buy from your brew store need to be washed and sanitized. I actually prefer to reuse my own bottles since I know where they've been, and how they were treated. Clean bottles, after a pour are as good as it gets. The ones from the recycling bins on the street, or worse, not so.

Now regarding your acidic tasting stout. Is it you or have you had others taste it too?

• Did you add an acid at some point?
• What is your recipe?
• Which yeast did you use?
• Do you suspect an infection, and why?
• How did it taste before you bottled it?

 

[ChucknBeer]

Hi IslandLizard,

• Did you add an acid at some point?
  Nopes, but I could have infected my batch due to bad luck
  https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=523315
• What is your recipe?
• Which yeast did you use?
• Do you suspect an infection, and why?
  See above
• How did it taste before you bottled it?
  I find myself tasting acid flavors in many beers. My first batch, a Pale Ale which was fermented way over the recommended temp, had a lot of toffee and green apple flavors, but little acid aftertaste. As per my post above, the first stout bottles I tasted were so acidic I immediately though of an infection. I have been opening more "samples" and, while some have a sweet aftertaste, other still have an acid/vinegar element that makes them not pleasant enough for me. My friends say that the beer is ok, though.

If I have some vinegar bottles and some normal ones, maybe I failed in the cleaning process... new bottles would have less junk on it, making cleaning/sanitation easier.

 

[IslandLizard]

Hi IslandLizard,

• Did you add an acid at some point?
  
  Nopes, but I could have infected my batch due to bad luck
  https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=523315
  
  Your sanitizer being Peracetic Acid can leave acidity. Did you rinse it off your equipment well enough and out of the bottles? I don't think it can be used as a "no-rinse sanitizer." I gather you're not in the US, do you have access to Iodophor or Starsan? Both being no-rinse at the proper dilution, they are easier to handle than what you're using now, and perhaps more effective. What country are you in? How is the water quality? Any chlorine in it?
  
• What is your recipe?
  
  Saw it in the other thread. Extract I suppose? Steeping grains?
  
• Which yeast did you use?
  
  US-05 is very neutral, if anything it can create some off flavors due to higher ferm temps, but not particularly sour, unless there was an infection riding along.
  
• Do you suspect an infection, and why?
  
  See above
  
  How did you clean those bottles? Using a brush, hot water, and washing soda or PBW? Since you seem to notice variations of sourness among the ones you tested, cleaning/sanitation can be a cause.
  
  Cleaning and sanitation are 2 different things and the latter cannot be done without a proper method of the first. Read up on that (e.g., Palmer).
  
• How did it taste before you bottled it?
  
  I find myself tasting acid flavors in many beers.
  
  Are you tasting acidity also in good commercial craft beers? Or just in your own and others' homebrews? How about other stouts?
  
  My first batch, a Pale Ale which was fermented way over the recommended temp, had a lot of toffee and green apple flavors, but little acid aftertaste. As per my post above, the first stout bottles I tasted were so acidic I immediately though of an infection. I have been opening more "samples" and, while some have a sweet aftertaste, other still have an acid/vinegar element that makes them not pleasant enough for me. My friends say that the beer is ok, though.
  
  Acetaldehyde gives green apple flavors, and they can trigger a sourness response. Control your fermentation temps better, and towards the lower ranges at least for the first week. Then leave it on the yeast cake for at least another week at slightly higher temps to clean itself up.
  
  I didn't see mentioning mashing, so these are 100% extract brews?
  Did you steep any dark grains and at what temp?
  You didn't boil the dark grains I hope?
  

If I have some vinegar bottles and some normal ones, maybe I failed in the cleaning process... new bottles would have less junk on it, making cleaning/sanitation easier.

A good bottle brush and a proper cleaner. You can use laundry detergent or automatic dishwash detergent with hot water in a bucket or tub. Bottles with lots of gunk (cig. butts, vermin, mold, or worse, etc.) need to be discarded, not worth the bother.

 

[ChucknBeer]

Hi,

Your sanitizer being Peracetic Acid can leave acidity. Did you rinse it off your equipment well enough and out of the bottles? I don't think it can be used as a "no-rinse sanitizer."

Yep, peracetic acid, 15%, 1ml per liter. I have read that peracetic is no rinse, but also read about fear of residual "acidification"...
Bottles were rinsed with water, cleaned with bottle brush, then filled with warm "oxiclean" type cleaner and left for 20 minutes, then washed with cold water and brush, then sanitized with peracetic, then stored in a bottle drying tree. Caps where rinsed with water and left in peracetic for more than 30 minutes.

I gather you're not in the US, do you have access to Iodophor or Starsan? Both being no-rinse at the proper dilution, they are easier to handle than what you're using now, and perhaps more effective.

I searched for iodine sanitizers with no success. Starsan is not available locally and anyone who starts distributing it in Chile will make a huge profit. Peracetic is what most homebrewers use here.

How is the water quality? Any chlorine in it?

Water is quite hard, it can range from 300 to 800 in some areas. Unfortunately the Law does not require townhalls to provide with water profiles including minerals, so unless you pay a lot of money for a water test, you do not have that info. The best I could do was to use aquarium tests for KH/GH.

What is your recipe?

Previous post, all grain.

US-05 is very neutral, if anything it can create some off flavors due to higher ferm temps, but not particularly sour, unless there was an infection riding along.

That is my concern.

Since you seem to notice variations of sourness among the ones you tested, cleaning/sanitation can be a cause.

Yes. Next batch I will use new bottles and see if there is any change.

How did it taste before you bottled it?

Quite nicely. The first gravity check was also good.

Are you tasting acidity also in good commercial craft beers? Or just in your own and others' homebrews? How about other stouts?

We have some pale ales made with bland water that taste a little bit acid, some other brewers tend to have some acid aftertaste. Also, I'm a bit paranoid about acidity, but with my stout I can confirm that it is real.

Control your fermentation temps better, and towards the lower ranges at least for the first week. Then leave it on the yeast cake for at least another week at slightly higher temps to clean itself up.

I used a STC1000 and a freezer to control ferm temp. Ketp in the high range of the optimal temperature (22-23°C).

I didn't see mentioning mashing, so these are 100% extract brews?
Did you steep any dark grains and at what temp?
You didn't boil the dark grains I hope?

All grain, single step mashed at 67°c for 90 minutes.

 

[IslandLizard]

Good answers there ^
Sorry I missed the mashing details listed on the bottom

Vinegar is an easy taste/smell to distinguish from other sour and tart ones, such as lactic.

If vinegar is the main sourness, you could have an acetobacter infection, but it would take more than 5 days to develop that strongly, unless your beer was laced with them. Besides, they need oxygen to convert alcohol to vinegar. That's unlikely to happen in a capped bottle, me thinks out loud.

150 ppm of working solution acid, further diluted 100-10000x after rinsing twice is undetectable, even tough for a pH meter.

22C is a bit warm for US-05, 18C would be better, but it won't cause sourness, only a little esters and extra fusels.

Who's has the next idea?