Question on cider with Nottingham

[dave8274]

Either will work, but priming with apple juice isn't going to add anything flavor-wise. I used table sugar.

I do recommend that you taste the cider before you bottle it. In my experience the plain Nottingham cider was very flat and uninteresting taste-wise. Getting through two cases of it was more of a chore than a delight. If you want to add some tannin (tea) or a little acidity to improve body and flavor, now is the time to do it. You could also dry hop in secondary if you want to get a hop aroma going.

I like the idea of the tea. How would you recommend using it/how much for a 5 gallon batch?

Would I just make some hot tea with a few bags, cool it, and put it in the bottling bucket with the priming sugar?

 

[Keith66]

Just mixed 5 gallons of TreeTop juice with 5 (12oz) cans of FAJC, and a pack of Notty Ale. The 6 gallons of 1.065 are just starting to show signs of fermentation after 12 hours in a glass carboy. I usually do cider in a bucket, but I wanna watch this batch. Based on past ciders, I'm expecting to get down to 1.003 - 0.997. After that, I'm gonna add priming sugar and bottle. My last batch tasted crisp and appley after fermentation, then I added 5 cans of FAJC and caramel flavoring for swmbo. And I'm too chicken to stove-top pasteurize anymore. I'll keep you posted on the new batch.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

I like the idea of the tea. How would you recommend using it/how much for a 5 gallon batch?

Would I just make some hot tea with a few bags, cool it, and put it in the bottling bucket with the priming sugar?

Pretty much. Check out Graham's Cider recipe for amounts people seem to like:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f81/grahams-english-cider-107152/

You're adding at the end of the ferment, but it should work just as well. I'd probably make the "tea" by heating up a bit of the cider and steeping in that. I'd heat it up just to make sure it is all sanitary (including juice if you add some) before you pitch it back in. Then rack and bottle as usual.

 

[Keith66]

Just mixed 5 gallons of TreeTop juice with 5 (12oz) cans of FAJC, and a pack of Notty Ale. The 6 gallons of 1.065 are just starting to show signs of fermentation after 12 hours in a glass carboy. I usually do cider in a bucket, but I wanna watch this batch. Based on past ciders, I'm expecting to get down to 1.003 - 0.997. After that, I'm gonna add priming sugar and bottle. My last batch tasted crisp and appley after fermentation, then I added 5 cans of FAJC and caramel flavoring for swmbo. And I'm too chicken to stove-top pasteurize anymore. I'll keep you posted on the new batch.

5 days in the fermenter so far. It foamed up (white, some of it was StarSan) and kept the airlock busy for the first few, now the foam is mostly gone and it's bubbling slowly at the surface with little yeasty floaties drifting up and down from the 1/4 inch yeast cake at the bottom. I'll wait til it's done bubbling then take a sample. Several more days I expect. It's been staying about 74-76 on the strip thermometer on the glass carboy. I'm getting mighty thirsty for some cider!

 

[oddcarout]

I have a simple cider going. It is made from raw apple cider, brown sugar and Nottingham. I need to backsweeten - swmbo - and I was wondering if I could use splenda without affecting the bottling. I am going to prime and bottle, just like I do beer, does this make sense? Also is using peptic enzyme to clear up the cider a good idea? if so when should I add it?

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Backsweetening with Splenda is fine if you're OK with the flavor. You can bottle as normal as the Splenda won't ferment.

I've never used pectic enzyme.

 

[oddcarout]

Thanks,
I think I was supposed to use it when I was adding everything to the ferment bucket. I might try it with another batch.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Nope - add the Splenda to a little warm water and add it at bottling. Taste and add until it is where you want it to be, then add priming sugar and bottle.

EDIT: now that I read your post I realized that you were talking about pectic enzyme. You can add pectic enzyme whenever you want, but you'll have to wait for the yeasts to finish fermenting whatever fermentables get cleaved by the enzyme, so primary is probably best by a time standpoint. If you can afford another few weeks in the fermenter you can add it now.

 

[oddcarout]

I have a hard time waiting but know in the end it is worth it.

Thanks for the help.

 

[jedijon]

I've used champage cider, nottingham's, english cider yeast, and some belgian yeasts.

There hasn't been any noticeable difference in fermentation speed, the open topped fermentations I've tried have been a mess of secondary bacterias that are a real risk, and you can feed it half a lb (in 5-6 gallons) every day or so and get to ~14%ABV [although it needed 6+ months of aging to be decent and I don't prefer it].

What DOES make a huge difference is amount of yeast. Fermentation temperature slightly less so [65 best taste, add 1 day to initial ferment, 70-75 is more normal in my house in early fall when most of my cider is getting made].

My current method is to put ~1/2 a pint jar of saved yeast in 5-7 gallons. Bubbling slows in 2-4 days. I feed it sugar then [so the initial blow-off isn't QUITE so dramatic] around 0.5lb/gallon. They start at ~1.050 and finish just under 1.000 after it's all said/done. Fireworks are over in a week. Clarity typically reached in 6 weeks, secondary is NOT required. Bottle conditioning (mine are bubbly) follows @ 3 volumes target.

 

[oddcarout]

If you are adding sugar during fermentation, the ABV calc will be off wont it?

 

[skadalajara]

If you are adding sugar during fermentation, the ABV calc will be off wont it?

Not if you calculate it all up ahead of time. If you know your total fermentable load, theoretically it doesn't matter when it's added.

 

[Keith66]

Just mixed 5 gallons of TreeTop juice with 5 (12oz) cans of FAJC, and a pack of Notty Ale. The 6 gallons of 1.065 are just starting to show signs of fermentation after 12 hours in a glass carboy. I usually do cider in a bucket, but I wanna watch this batch. Based on past ciders, I'm expecting to get down to 1.003 - 0.997. After that, I'm gonna add priming sugar and bottle. My last batch tasted crisp and appley after fermentation, then I added 5 cans of FAJC and caramel flavoring for swmbo. And I'm too chicken to stove-top pasteurize anymore. I'll keep you posted on the new batch.

9/5: OG=1.065
9/15: SG=1.012
Very appley and slightly dry at 6.5%ABV. Headed for 1.000.

 

[Keith66]

9/5: OG=1.065
9/15: SG=1.012
Very appley and slightly dry at 6.5%ABV. Headed for 1.000.

9/22: SG=1.010 ...stalled.
I was hoping for 1.000 and 8%ABV. Any suggestions?

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

9/22: SG=1.010 ...stalled.
I was hoping for 1.000 and 8%ABV. Any suggestions?

I would try to degas it and be patient. The last 10 points take quite a while to come off. See the gravity vs. time plot earlier in this thread. Put it away someplace warm and check in on it in mid-October.

 

[Keith66]

Does degas mean stir? And should I stir up the yeast cake too?

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Does degas mean stir? And should I stir up the yeast cake too?

High amounts of CO2 in solution drive down the pH and stress the yeasts, so rousing it a little bit to shake out some gas out won't hurt. I don't think you should open it and stir it with a wine whip. If you just keep it someplace warm the cider won't hold on to so much gas.

Bottom line, cider ferments aren't like a beer ferment, it will take a while but will be fine. 1.010 at this stage of the game is pretty good.

 

[Keith66]

Well... I've done a few batches of cider with straight juice (1.045) and Wyeast cider yeast, and they went to 0.997 in about 2 weeks. This batch is juice + FAJC = 1.065 + Notty. It's been around 74F in the closet the whole time. The 1/4 inch bubbles stopped several days ago, now I have a steady but slow stream of 1mm bubbles, so it's still going, but barely, and slower than my other ciders. Could be the alcohol, could be the Notty I guess. Not sure I can warm it up any more though. So a stir in the carboy might not be advisable?

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

If you want fast, a cider yeast or a wine yeast like Lalvin EC-1118 would be a better choice, but you'd get a different product at the end.

Nottingham is an ale yeast - it does work nicely in cider, and makes esters that complement ciders well, but it ain't fast. Ciders and wines are very acidic and nutrient poor compared to most beer worts - Nottingham is tough but it is not in its happy place in cider. If you can shake out the gas occaisionally to keep the pH up, keep it warm, those things will help. It will get there and be a nice cider, but you'll have to wait for it.

Give it a little shake now and again to keep things moving, but I wouldn't open it and stir as that might cause oxidation.

 

[Keith66]

Got it. Thanks for the info TC!

 

[Albionwood]

All this discussion is making me want to try Notty again, it's been several years and maybe I need to give it another go. I need to pick my Kingston Blacks and press them out soon...

 

[Keith66]

Had I known that Notty went so slow, I probably woulda stuck with Wyeast-Cider. Coulda been drinking by now.

 

[Keith66]

Had I known that Notty went so slow, I probably woulda stuck with Wyeast-Cider. Coulda been drinking by now.

YAY! It finally stopped bubbling and the foam went away! Tomorrow I'll take an FG, prime and bottle!

 

[Keith66]

Had I known that Notty went so slow, I probably woulda stuck with Wyeast-Cider. Coulda been drinking by now.

YAY! It finally stopped bubbling and the foam went away! Tomorrow I'll take an FG, prime and bottle!

 

[Keith66]

YAY! It finally stopped bubbling and the foam went away! Tomorrow I'll take an FG, prime and bottle!

1.004. Think I'll let it go a few more days while I decide whether to backsweeten with non-fermentable. 1.002 = 8.0% abv right on the nose.

 

[ericbw]

Sub

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

1.004. Think I'll let it go a few more days while I decide whether to backsweeten with non-fermentable. 1.002 = 8.0% abv right on the nose.

Let it ferment out completely. It will go to 1.000 or lower. Patience!

 

[Keith66]

1.004. Think I'll let it go a few more days while I decide whether to backsweeten with non-fermentable. 1.002 = 8.0% abv right on the nose.

1.065-1.001=8.1%, primed, bottled and soon too be drunk. No backsweetening, and screw that aging crap! Maybe on some future batch.

 

[TexasWine]

1.065-1.001=8.1%, primed, bottled and soon too be drunk. No backsweetening, and screw that aging crap! Maybe on some future batch.

Hey Keith. Judging from your last string of posts here, I would be on the lookout for bottle bombs. Your gravity was still dropping when you bottled, indicating that your yeast was still chomping away at those sugars (you went from 1.004 to 1.001 in the span of one day).

I'd wait for the gravity to read constant for at least three days before bottling. The only time I wouldn't is if I planned to pasteurize to stop the fermentation or if I was going to keep the cider cold for the duration of its shelf life.

Hopefully I'm completely wrong about this and everything will be fine. But if you get a gusher in one bottle you'll know you're on the way to bottle bombs in the others.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Yeah, you are definitely in danger of bottle bombs. You said yourself that one of your earlier ciders went down to 0.997, and yet you bottled this one at 1.001? That's possibly 4 points of gravity that has yet to be fermented, which is also about the amount of gravity you add during normal priming.

Lack of bubbles in the airlock or the cider itself means nothing. You can (and likely did) have a very slow active ferment. The only way to be sure that it is done is to take the gravity three times on alternating days. If you get the same gravity all three times, you are safe to bottle.

I would open one of those bottles every few days to check the carbonation. If (when) you start getting good carbonation, either refrigerate the entire batch, open them all and let them ferment out again and then rebottle, try pasteurizing them, or put them in an explosion-proof bunker and wear face and body protection when you go near them.