Question abut decoction mash

[beermanpete]

On the batch that gave you the honey notes: That seems like it would be from the malt. Where there other malts or only 100% pilsner malt? What was the mash temp? Maybe a lower mash temp would dry it out a bit.

 

[MSK_Chess]

On the batch that gave you the honey notes: That seems like it would be from the malt. Where there other malts or only 100% pilsner malt? What was the mash temp? Maybe a lower mash temp would dry it out a bit.

yes berermanpete I suspected as much myself and feel reticent about using the same malt, Best Maltz or the same supplier. It was mostly Pilsner with a little Munich as far as I can recall. If it was the malt then i don't know what i could do about that? generally I do a maltose rest at 62C and a saccrification rest at 70-72C and a mash out at 75C. If its a yeast problem I might use 37/40 or some other dry yeast as it doesn't need the same oxygen as a liquid yeast.

 

[ESBrewer]

Did you do proper diacetyl rest when you got the honey-like off flavor? Pentanedione is much like diacetyl(butanedione) and gives honey-like taste especially in lagers(pilsner malts).

 

[Smellyglove]

yes berermanpete I suspected as much myself and feel reticent about using the same malt, Best Maltz or the same supplier. It was mostly Pilsner with a little Munich as far as I can recall. If it was the malt then i don't know what i could do about that? generally I do a maltose rest at 62C and a saccrification rest at 70-72C and a mash out at 75C. If its a yeast problem I might use 37/40 or some other dry yeast as it doesn't need the same oxygen as a liquid yeast.

I'm also getting honey from my light lagers, using continental european pilsner-malt. It takes for ages to get rid of during cold conditioning. But, I've realized that theres a VDK called 2,3-pentanedione which gives a honey taste. However, The threshold for this is something like 10 times lower than that of Diacetyl, and I'm not picking up any diacetyl in the beers. I'm kinda stumped about this honey-taste. It shouldn't be there.

 

[ESBrewer]

If it is pentanedione it should go away with a good diacetyl rest at considerably higher temp than lager fermentation. Start before you reach final gravity. Kräusening may also help if you bottle condition.

 

[beermanpete]

yes berermanpete I suspected as much myself and feel reticent about using the same malt, Best Maltz or the same supplier. It was mostly Pilsner with a little Munich as far as I can recall. If it was the malt then i don't know what i could do about that? generally I do a maltose rest at 62C and a saccrification rest at 70-72C and a mash out at 75C. If its a yeast problem I might use 37/40 or some other dry yeast as it doesn't need the same oxygen as a liquid yeast.

Perhaps you could try using a lower temp. for the saccharifinication rest. Maybe 65 or 66 C. The Mexican cerveza style is similar to a light American lager and should be quite dry. An adjunct (rice or corn) might help dry it out even more if that is what you want.

 

[Smellyglove]

If it is pentanedione it should go away with a good diacetyl rest at considerably higher temp than lager fermentation. Start before you reach final gravity. Kräusening may also help if you bottle condition.

I don't do a D-rest for my lagers as it's not needed, and I do speise or krausen them in about half of the batches, but still kegging.

 

[ESBrewer]

You could try with d-rest if you feel you need to get rid of the honey. Speise will be different for ketones compared to kräusening cause there is no fresh yeast to eat these compounds.

 

[Smellyglove]

You could try with d-rest if you feel you need to get rid of the honey. Speise will be different for ketones compared to kräusening cause there is no fresh yeast to eat these compounds.

But the thing I find strange is that there's no diacetyl. I'm not one of those who are "immune" to diacetyl as I can't drink a London Pride anymore.

 

[ESBrewer]

Yes, you are right about the typical taste thresholds, but the fact that there is no diacetyl does not mean there is no pentanedione. Could probably be 10-times more in some combinations of yeast/malt/conditions ?

 

[MSK_Chess]

But the thing I find strange is that there's no diacetyl. I'm not one of those who are "immune" to diacetyl as I can't drink a London Pride anymore.

yes this was my experience also and like you I am not immune. I stopped using WLP002 English because i felt that it left too much diacetyl, now for my Ales i use WLP028 Edinburgh and its fantastic.

 

[cmac62]

I usually do my bocks and especially doppelbocks for 2.5-3 hrs.

I do my scotch ales at least for 90 mins. It makes a big difference.

 

[cmac62]

yes this was my experience also and like you I am not immune. I stopped using WLP002 English because i felt that it left too much diacetyl, now for my Ales i use WLP028 Edinburgh and its fantastic.

I love that yeast.

 

[Gonjeshk]

I've brew some batches of weizenbock style and to me decoction yielded much more complex beer.

With regard to decoction, I’ve tried my hand at a number of pilsners and lagers looking for a particular flavour that I especially enjoy in European pilsners. It’s that dry biscuity aftertaste which almost reminds me of the taste of freshly baked bread. It’s not a sweetness imparted by the malt itself (which I also like), but a crisp, biscuity flavour which can even be found in otherwise dry beers. I had tried all sorts of malts, including melanoiden and various caramel malts, but could never replicate exactly what it was I was tasting... until I did a decoction. I had almost given up on pilsners, until I did a single decoction mash with my lastest batch, and now that flavour is present.

Everybody’s palate is different, so whether or not a decoction mash is worth it to you will depend on whether that flavour is detectable to your palate and how much value you place on it. For me, all my future lagers and pilsners will be double- if not triple-decoction mashes.