Question about timing during mash and boil

[TasunkaWitko]

Hi, all -

In general, I follow this method when brewing my 1-gallon batches:

[ame]https://vimeo.com/11354805[/ame]

It works very well for me, and I have no complaints. I've brewed consistent, great-tasting beer - without fuss or hassle - and it has consistently gotten better as I've gained experience. I'm not looking to change this method.

Having said that, I'd like to fine-tune the method a bit, "if" it needs it.

My questions are:

a) RE: the mash, I mash in, set timer for 10 minutes, then stir at the end of 10 minutes, then re-set the timer for 10 minutes. This cycle repeats itself for the hour that it takes to do the mash. If the temperature is too low, I bring it up to where it needs to be before I re-set the timer. Sometimes this takes a few minutes. Is this the correct thing to do, or should I simply set the timer for an hour and let it run while I stir, bring back up to temp etc.? Or does it matter?

b) RE: the boil, similar situation here; I set the timer for the first addition after the hot break, then add the hops when the timer goes off, then give a quick stir, then set the timer for the next addition. This cycle repeats itself throughout the boil. Should I just be setting the timer for the hour or whatever, then adding hops as needed without the pause that it takes to add, stir etc.? Or does it matter?

Thanks in advance -

Ron

 

[cswis86]

I also stir my mash every 10-15 minutes. I think it does a better job distributing the heat more evenly and results in better conversion. Of course I'm lazy and don't set a timer. I just check the time when I mash in and stir occasionally. Same with hops. No timer, just watch the clock. If you're off by a couple minutes with you hop additions or forget to stir it's not a big deal.

 

[BassElement]

I use the multiple countdown timer capabilities of DuckDuckGo to set all the timers at once, i.e. full boil plus additions. I also stir regularly during the boil, seems to reduce the chances of boiling over and keeps things well-mixed. Cheers!

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Good morning, guys, and thanks for the replies.

I guess my question is, am I unnecessarily extending the time with this practice? Regarding the mash, especially, is it "correct" to only count the mashing time when it is actually in the temperature range that I want it to be in, or should I simply be mashing only for the hour itself?

 

[nDub]

I dough in. Stir/heat until I feel the temp is legit in the mash. Wrap it in towels. Then walk away from it...

I'm not sure that stirring is necessary every 10 minutes. Maybe once if your worried about cold spots.

The conversion is happening regardless of stirring so 60 minutes of mash is 60 minutes of conversion. The enzymes don't take a break while you stir.

Same with boil. No need to add time for hop additions.

Its all personal preference of course.

 

[Morrey]

Ron, how "far" out of temp range are you find your mashes during the mash cycle?

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Hi, Morrey -

Brooklyn Brew Shop generally recommends mashing between 144 and 152 degrees; I try to hold my temps a bit tighter, between 148 and 152 degrees. For some beers, I go up to 154 or, rarely, 156, with the same narrow range.

Anyway, I'll get my temps up to, say, 152; I will then set the timer for the 10 minutes and leave it alone. By the time I come back, the temperature usually (but not always) will have fallen down to maybe 146 or 144. I'll take a few minutes to bring the temperature back up around 152, then put the lid on, set the timer and leave it alone again.

For what it's worth, I do my mashing (these are 1-gallon batches) in an enameled cast iron Dutch oven, which seems to hold the temperatures better than my stainless steel stock pot ever did. I've read from others about setting the kettle in an oven on the lowest setting, but my lowest oven setting is 160, which would be too high. I plan to do some brewing tonight or tomorrow, and will probably try nDub's excellent suggestion of wrapping in a few towels, in order to see if that helps to hold the temperature a little better.

Ron

 

[John Eberly]

It's working for you now, I don't see a reason to change.

More consistent temperature would probably help to give more true-to-style beer but that is hard to achieve without making an investment in equipment and storage space. Larger batches give more thermal mass and make it easier to maintain temps. A cooler tun helps immensely too.

But you are making beer that you like, seemingly in quantities that are adequate, and within the constraints of your living arrangements. Sounds pretty good as is.

 

[Morrey]

Hi, Morrey -

Brooklyn Brew Shop generally recommends mashing between 144 and 152 degrees; I try to hold my temps a bit tighter, between 148 and 152 degrees. For some beers, I go up to 154 or, rarely, 156, with the same narrow range.

Anyway, I'll get my temps up to, say, 152; I will then set the timer for the 10 minutes and leave it alone. By the time I come back, the temperature usually (but not always) will have fallen down to maybe 146 or 144. I'll take a few minutes to bring the temperature back up around 152, then put the lid on, set the timer and leave it alone again.

For what it's worth, I do my mashing (these are 1-gallon batches) in an enameled cast iron Dutch oven, which seems to hold the temperatures better than my stainless steel stock pot ever did. I've read from others about setting the kettle in an oven on the lowest setting, but my lowest oven setting is 160, which would be too high. I plan to do some brewing tonight or tomorrow, and will probably try nDub's excellent suggestion of wrapping in a few towels, in order to see if that helps to hold the temperature a little better.

Ron

I'd say your temps were dropping quite a bit in only 10 minutes, so the insulating/wrapping your Dutch oven tip is well worth a try. I mash right in my stainless boil kettle so I wrap with a felt mover's blanket. I usually stir at the 20 and 40 min marks for a 60 min mash. Like you, I keep my mash ranges 148 (dry)-152 (a bit of mouthfeel) unless I am doing a really unique beer like a milk stout with lots of residuals for sweetness and mouthfeel. I'll go 155F here but 148-152 is my go to range.

With only one gallon you have less liquid to stabilize the temp plus you are cooling by stirring frequently. Just suggestions, but three stirs and wrapping with towels or similar may help solve your temp losses. BUT, I think I'd set my timer for 60 min and let it run regardless of whether you are stirring or readjusting your mash temp. Won't hurt to go longer as you are doing, but it may not be totally necessary.

 

[RM-MN]

I dough in. Stir/heat until I feel the temp is legit in the mash. Wrap it in towels. Then walk away from it...

I'm not sure that stirring is necessary every 10 minutes. Maybe once if your worried about cold spots.

The conversion is happening regardless of stirring so 60 minutes of mash is 60 minutes of conversion. The enzymes don't take a break while you stir.

Same with boil. No need to add time for hop additions.

Its all personal preference of course.

This isn't necessarily true. The mash might go on for 60 minutes but the conversion could be done in less than 30. I never stir because my conversion is done in less than 10 minutes.

 

[cswis86]

This isn't necessarily true. The mash might go on for 60 minutes but the conversion could be done in less than 30. I never stir because my conversion is done in less than 10 minutes.

No, this is entirely true. Enzymes will stay active until they are denatured by heat or pH. If you mash for 60 minutes the enzymes with be active for 60 minutes. They will continue to break down sugars into smaller and smaller pieces. Passing an iodine test just means that there is no starch in the mash.

 

[kh54s10]

I do think you are adding a lot of time to your brew day. I stir in the mash and close my mashtun when the temperature is right. I sometimes stir at 1/2 hour. I do not reset the timer.

For the boil I wait until the foam falls back, add my bittering hops (if 60 minutes) and start the timer. I use a 5 gallon paint strainer bag (5 gallon batches) and add the hops at the appropriate times. I do not stop the timer during additions.

 

[kh54s10]

When I do smaller batches (BIAB) I heat the strike water, stir in the grains, check the temperature then put the pot in the oven - preheated to about 150. The worst drop in temperature was about 4 degrees in one hour.

In my water cooler mash tun the worst was maybe 8 degrees, mid winter, with blankets etc, insulating as best I could.

Neither drop in temperature concerned me greatly since I figured most of the conversion was done before the temperature dropped too much. Of course the more stable the temperature the better.

 

[doug293cz]

Have you thought about sticking the Dutch Oven mash tun in a warm (~150˚F) oven for the duration of the mash. You would then not have to worry about temp drop. Stir or not, whatever makes you happy.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

No, this is entirely true. Enzymes will stay active until they are denatured by heat or pH. If you mash for 60 minutes the enzymes with be active for 60 minutes. They will continue to break down sugars into smaller and smaller pieces. Passing an iodine test just means that there is no starch in the mash.

This is also not entirely true. Conversion will only proceed as long as there are starches and dextrins for the enzymes to work on. One you are to the point where all you have left in the mash is limit dextrins (branched poly-saccharides that cannot be cleaved any smaller by amylase) and mono- and di-saccharides, then conversion is over. There is nothing left to convert. Conversion stops at this point, or when all of the amylase is denatured, whichever comes first.

Brew on

 

[RM-MN]

This is also not entirely true. Conversion will only proceed as long as there are starches and dextrins for the enzymes to work on. One you are to the point where all you have left in the mash is limit dextrins (branched poly-saccharides that cannot be cleaved any smaller by amylase) and mono- and di-saccharides, then conversion is over. There is nothing left to convert. Conversion stops at this point, or when all of the amylase is denatured, whichever comes first.

Brew on

It seems pretty hard to pin down how long it takes for the amylase to denature but what I've seen is that it denatures quickly at mash temps. I'd like to know just how long "quickly" is. The last pale ale I brewed got a 30 minute mash at 154F and had a projected FG of 1.013 but is currently at 1.006, 13 days from pitching. If the enzymes were not denatured by the 30 minutes and I left the mash go for another 30 minutes, where would my FG be?

 

[wilserbrewer]

JMO, you don't need to brew to a specific schedule every ten minutes per the directions provided with the kits.

The warm oven advice to maintain mash temp is a good one. Lots of folks report success mashing overnight fwiw. The length of time and how much you stir likely makes little difference, what's important is a constant temp and a warm oven will handle that well. A good stir at the beginning and end end of the mash Is likely all you need.

As for the boil, the critical timing is for your late hops near the end of the boil.

Boiling for 45 minutes or 60 minutes won't change the beer much if your late hops are to the same schedule....

 

[Jtk78]

.....
I've read from others about setting the kettle in an oven on the lowest setting, but my lowest oven setting is 160, which would be too high......
Ron

Have you thought about setting it to 160, getting your mash to temp, turning the oven off and putting the mash in. With the oven now off, it wouldn't be trying to raise the temp of the mash, and I bet would hold quite nicely.

 

[Morrey]

On the topic of temps relating to conversion I have noted temps in making distilling mashes that long term temp has less impact than I thought. This may be unrelated to malt only mashes, but worth a thought.

A mash I distill will have 80% flaked maize and 20% malts to provide conversion power. I aide this with amylase enzymes. Corn is hard to give up sugars, so I test my 148F mash at 20 min....say it reads 1.020. This is a slow conversion process and 2 hours later it may read 1.040 and the temp is now 140F. I usually hit 1.070 by hour 5 and the temp will be less than 130F. The kettle is wrapped but no heat applied. I experimented and kept the heat more constant toward 148F and the time the conversion took was the same. This gave me something to think about, but is this temp differential related to corn mashes only...or would it apply to all malt mashes too?

 

[Morrey]

Have you thought about setting it to 160, getting your mash to temp, turning the oven off and putting the mash in. With the oven now off, it wouldn't be trying to raise the temp of the mash, and I bet would hold quite nicely.

I do this for various reasons. Get the oven to 150F, turn the oven off then leave the oven light on. Believe it or not, that oven light has more heat output than you think and will help keep the residual heat stable.

 

[wilserbrewer]

A 160 degree oven is pretty close to your desired mash temp, a helluva lot closer than room temp. Rdwhahb and perhaps just shut the oven off after a period of time. Or leave it on and your mash may warm a little bit over the hour.

Find a routine that produces desirable results. Stirring and turning the burner on every ten minutes likely see saws between too hot and or two cold.

Warm oven ftw even if your lowest setting is 160.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Good morning, everyone - and thanks for the great discussion.

It looks like I have indeed been making my BrewDay longer than it probably needs to be. Between some sort of wrapping and the oven suggestions, I'll see if I can put my time to better use. It seems to make good sense to do as has been suggested: pre-heat the oven, then shut it off and leave the light on to provide that bit of residual heat.

I'm set to brew a batch of Edelweiß tonight, so I will see if I can put some of these suggestions to practice.

Thanks again -

Ron

 

[doug293cz]

It seems pretty hard to pin down how long it takes for the amylase to denature but what I've seen is that it denatures quickly at mash temps. I'd like to know just how long "quickly" is. The last pale ale I brewed got a 30 minute mash at 154F and had a projected FG of 1.013 but is currently at 1.006, 13 days from pitching. If the enzymes were not denatured by the 30 minutes and I left the mash go for another 30 minutes, where would my FG be?

Here's the only info I have ever seen on Amylase lifetime vs. temperature. It's from Kai Troester (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion.) I've added the ˚F conversions and the chart titles. The only thing to do with the X-axis on the Alpha graph is assume the time scale is the same as for the Beta graph.



As for your question about "how low can I go?", that's almost impossible to answer. It depends on how close this particular mash was to the ultimate conversion limit (i.e. the nothing but limit dextrins and mono- & di-saccharides.) If it was at the limit, then additional mash time would not have led to a lower FG. If you weren't at the ultimate conversion limit, then additional mash time probably would have led to a lower FG.

One enzyme that hardly ever gets talked about is Limit Dextrinase, which is an enzyme that can cut the branching links in amylopectin. It denatures even faster than beta-amylase, so has a very short lifetime at typical mash temps. However, unlike the amylase enzymes, it can move the ultimate conversion endpoint towards more fermentable, by reducing the amount of residual limit dextrins, and increasing the amount of fermentable sugars. Amylase enzymes cannot reduce the amount of limit dextrins.

With your very fine crush, and thus extremely rapid gelatinization, you may be getting more action from Limit Dextrinase than occurs in a mash with a coarser crush. This would tend to drive your FG's below the predictions made by brewing software, since they are just empirical fits to data from conventional mash processes.

Brew on

 

[singybrue]

I agree, stick your pot in your 160deg oven then close the door and turn the oven off. Ignore it for an hour. The take it out, give it a stir and check the temp. Adjust the heat or time for the next brew as needed.

As far as the boil goes, set your timer for 60 mins and just let it run. Throw in your hops and additions at the appropriate time.

Don't get too hung up on exact times- if you mash for 55 mins or boil for 62, it's not gonna make a difference in your beer.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Well, I tried the oven thing last night when I was brewing my beer. It seemed to me that it kept the mash a little too warm, even with the oven turned off, so I might try the towels next time, instead.

One good thing about the oven is that the enclosed space definitely seems to keep heat from bleeding off. Heat retention seems to be the issue; with a 1-gallon batch, there simply isn't the mass there to hold temps, even with a heavy, enameled, covered cast iron pot. I am guessing that this is part of the reason for the stirring every 10 minutes: to keep temperatures consistent throughout the mash.

I'll see if I can fine-tune something for future brews, but it's not a huge deal. If I am unable to, I can simply go back to doing what I've been doing, as it works well.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Well, I tried the oven thing last night when I was brewing my beer. It seemed to me that it kept the mash a little too warm, even with the oven turned off, so I might try the towels next time, instead.

Did you take temperatures? How much did the mash warm up? You could try turning the oven off a few minutes before putting your pot in?

I would prefer the mash temp rising slightly over high lows and stirring and heating every 10 minutes.

The goal is to come up with an easy and effective hands off method, and I feel the oven should work well with perhaps a little practice.

Insulating the pot with towels works for larger batches, but I'm afraid 1 gallon may me too small to rely on heat mass to keep things stable.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Hi, wilser, and thanks for the reply.

Here's how it went down -

As it turns out, the lowest setting on this new oven is 170, not 160. I heated it up to that, then immediately turned it off, but left the light on. I mashed in at 160, the temp fell down to about 154. I put the lid on, set it in the oven (which was turned off) and set the timer.

After 10 minutes, the mash was still pretty high, maybe 157 or 158. I took it out of the oven and stirred it around; the temperature fell a little, close to normal. I covered it and left it on stovetop.

10 and 20 minutes later, it was normal and falling off to the low end, so I heated it back up to the temperature, then covered it again and stuck it in the oven. After 10 minutes it had climbed a bit high, but not terrible.

For the rest of the mash, I continued to chase it around a bit, but kept it at the high end of the range.

I think the big factor here was that the oven heated to 170 (instead of 160) to begin with - too high. I can heat it a bit, then shut it off and put the pot in while it is warm (not heated), and I think it will work better. The towels may or may not be helpful; I do a lot of barbecuing, and it is amazing what a little insulation in any form can do. One place where the oven is a big help is in keeping air/draft etc. off the pot, which robs the heat. In this case, it seems to have worked a little too well; but as you said, with a little practice, I think we can dial something in.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Yea, with such a small batch, keeping at a set temp within a degree will be nearly impossible.

If it were my problem, I try mashing in at 150, placing in the warm / off oven and let it climb a little then cool a little.

There is no miracle that happens at an exact temp ime. You could likely mash in at 140, put it in the 170 oven left on for two hours and have a successful mash without touching it.

Hell you could set the oven timer to turn itself off and boil the following day. Mash while you sleep....sure beats checking and stirring every 10 minutes.

Cheers

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Some good ideas there, thanks!

I'll get it figured out, eventually. To be honest, the way I was doing it wasn't too bad at all, just a bit more time-consuming that it seemed to need to be. Then again, I am usually not doing much else anyway, as I am usually brewing late at night or on a day off.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Just a quick follow-up on this -

I asked Brooklyn Brew Shop for their opinion on whether it is better to "stop the clock" during the mash while bringing it back up to temperature. I'm copying and pasting the reply here, for anyone interested:

If you go below temperature, its not a bad idea to stop the clock. You want a full hour mash at 144-152 F.

Since this is what I have been doing, and it has been working well, I'll probably keep doing it. Having said that, retaining temperature remains a priority, and I'll keep working on that goal.

Thanks to all for your replies and the suggestions ~

Ron