Question about the acidulated malt for brewing a Gose...

[Garage12brewing]

Hi guys !

I will most likely brew my first sour beer this weekend. I want to make a Raspberry Gose for the hot summer days.

To keep it simple I will use about 20% acidulated malt for my 5 gallons batch.

I know that I need to add this grain after the main mash for about 45min BUT will they contribute to raise the gravity of the wort too ?

Lets say I want to use 50% Pilsner 50% wheat malt for the grain bill. 5lbs Pilsner / 5 lbs wheat malt. Do I need to substract 2lbs of Pilsner that will be replaced with 2lbs of Acidulated malt later after the main mash ?

I would guess yes... but I dont want to screw up...

Thanks for the help

 

[Vale71]

Acidulated malt is nothing but Pilsner malt with lactic acid sprinkled on it and then dried. You need to mash it like any other malt or you won't get full conversion.
Since it's just Pilsner malt then yes, you should subtract it from the regular Pilsner malt amount.

 

[Garage12brewing]

Acidulated malt is nothing but Pilsner malt with lactic acid sprinkled on it and then dried. You need to mash it like any other malt or you won't get full conversion.
Since it's just Pilsner malt then yes, you should subtract it from the regular Pilsner malt amount.

Thanks but why we need to add it after the main mash ?

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks but why we need to add it after the main mash ?

Sauermalz (Acidulated Malt) is a malt. It needs to be crushed and mashed like any other malt.

Are you attempting to just use it as your acidifying agent without crushing it? In that case, just use a liquid mineral acid.

 

[VikeMan]

What are you planning to use to sour your wort/beer? i.e. you need a source of Lactobacillus.

 

[Garage12brewing]

Sauermalz (Acidulated Malt) is a malt. It needs to be crushed and mashed like any other malt.

Are you attempting to just use it as your acidifying agent without crushing it? In that case, just use a liquid mineral acid.

Yes I want to use them to acidify but honestly I would have crushed them and add them after the main mash. Never tought about using them not crushed. You can see on my link the procedure/recipe on the BYO page : Gose: A relic returns - Brew Your Own

 

[Garage12brewing]

What are you planning to use to sour your wort/beer? i.e. you need a source of Lactobacillus.

I want to use the acidulated malt that replace the Lactic acid or the Lactobacilius. It is a ''cheated'' sour beer... many recipe from what I found use this method. I am trying to make sure I will do it right.

 

[VikeMan]

First, I think you may be disappointed by the results of simply acidifying the wort without Lactobacillus. The flavors in a sour don't just come from the acid. But if you're going to do this, why use grains to get the acid? IMO, it would be a waste of grains. (Conversion of the acidulated malt will suck when using that much, because the pH will be so low.) Lactic acid is readily available in bottles, for easy, controlled dosing.

I had a look at the article you linked. The way the part about souring by adding acidulated malt reads, I suspect the writer never actually did that, because he uses words like "I would use..." and not "I have used" or "I do."

 

[RPh_Guy]

+1 For using bacteria. It is very simple.

See here:
https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer

 

[Vale71]

Thanks but why we need to add it after the main mash ?

My point was that you can't add it after the mash. I don't know where you got that information but it's just plain wrong.

 

[firerat]

If you are not going to use bacteria, use the 88% lactic acid they sell at homebrew stores.

With something like a raspberry gose it will work. It won't be as complex as using bacteria but it can be used to get a good acid twang. I've done it in my hibiscus gose and enjoyed it just fine. Just add a bit when bottling and sample. Start small though. You can always add more but can't take it back.

 

[jwa120]

I have had good results adding latic acid to the finished beer. It gives you a lot of flexibility in dialing in your acidity. Using acidmalt would be the least attractive option to me to use.

 

[Gruel]

Mhmm. There just was/is a discussion on the use of lactic acid producing bacteria on malt in the low oxygen (LODO) forum. The prevailing opinion there seems to be that adding the lactobacillus infected malt (sour gut/'Sauergut') is the way to go for any brew, to optimize the mashing pH, and also to get that sour german taste. (I'm not so sure about that latter part; I might also not be quoting them 100% right...)

My 1 1/2 cents:
a) If you add the acidulated malt before mashing, it will help reduce the pH value of the mash. But I've only ever used a few ounces per ten pounds, not 20% of the whole grain load, as you are planning to do. It sounds like your pH would be way low if you added it before mashing.

b) the lactic acid will survive the boiling of the wort, but I don't think the bacteria will. I know the acid part from tasting espresso after cleaning the espresso machine and not rinsing...

c) For Berliner Weisse and other sour beers the Google tells me that you could either ferment with yeast and lactobacillus in the same vessel (essentially exactly like making sourdough bread), or you could split the boiled wort, and inoculate half of it with yeast, and infect the other half with lactobacillus. The lactobacillus could come from unboiled and maybe even uncrushed malt, since it sits on the surface, waiting to spoil your beer.

My vote is to go with fermenting separate batches, admixing the lactobacillus 'beer' to taste - and then just dumping it. What's wrong with good old normal beer flavor? Just because the Berliners couldn't keep lactobacillus out of their vats doesn't mean you have to follow their bad example. That stuff tastes just awful without raspberry or woodruff syrup! And who wants beer with sweetener??

But it's your choice. Good luck!

 

[bkboiler]

I think sauermalz and sauergut are a bit different...
I had a gose this week by dogfish head brewed with limes, lime zest and even black limes. Very good, but not complex at all, almost one dimensional...
Not knocking it, that's kinda what Gose is supposed to be...but I have had better Gose's in the past with more nuance...
My preference is to get hit with the sour, then the salt, then the malt, then a slight dry taste...but complexity is nice to help it not just taste like im drinking fizzy salty lemonade...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just because the Berliners couldn't keep lactobacillus out of their vats doesn't mean you have to follow their bad example.

Have you never drank a sour beer? The Lactobacillus adds desirable flavor. Read the article I linked above and the Modern Souring sticky in the wild/lambic subforum.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I know some of the trendy FR00T "sours" are made dosing the beer with acid and not lactic fermentation. I won't name names.

The best analogy I've heard for making a sour that way is microwaved steak. Even if you cook it to technically medium rare temp, don't expect it to taste right.

Kettle souring is easy as can be, and will taste a lot better than using gratuitous quantities of acid malt or just dosing with acid. I swear by using Good Belly and I know others do as well.

 

[VikeMan]

Kettle souring is easy as can be, and will taste a lot better than using gratuitous quantities of acid malt or just dosing with acid. I swear by using Good Belly and I know others do as well.

I like Goodbelly Shots a lot. Swanson L. plantarum probiotic pills are great too.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Have you never drank a sour beer? The Lactobacillus adds desirable flavor. Read the article I linked above and the Modern Souring sticky in the wild/lambic subforum.

I've heard Germans express the "Berliner Weisse without added syrup is gross" sentiment before.

Not saying I agree with it or that it's even commonplace. Just that it's not an isolated opinion.

Which does make me wonder why people of that opinion would voluntarily drink it even with syrup. That's something you do to make medicine palatable, that you consume because you have to.

Perhaps it's like coffee. People who guzzle down cream and sugar bombs but can't tolerate it straight. Because it's a caffeine delivery vehicle and little more.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You are in luck. Lallemand now has a sort of 'lactobacillus like' yeast (as opposed to bacteria) by which to ferment and thereby create sours, thereby bypassing a need to introduce live lactobacillus bacteria, and/or to over-acidify. I.E., no need to try and figure out how to properly do it the old fashioned way.

Sourvisiae® is a bioengineered ale yeast strain (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) capable of producing lactic acid during fermentation to provide brewers with an easy, reproducible, and mono-culture product for sour-style beer production.

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/LAL-TDS-Mascoma-Sourvisiae-Final-1.pdf
BTW, there is no live lactobacillus bacteria in 88% lactic acid.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Kettle souring is easy as can be

I agree with you right up until this.
Co-souring is way easier and produces a much more flavorful product.

I've heard Germans express the "Berliner Weisse without added syrup is gross" sentiment before.

I understand there to be two different versions of Berliner Weisse in Germany, the modern and the traditional, and then there are a wide spectrum of Americanized versions which do not resemble either of the German versions. It's hard to compare beers based on a style label when there's such a wide variety, much less try to sort through why people may or may not like them.
(Listen to the Berliner Weisse milk the funk podcast.)

I have never seen anyone who has used bacteria for souring say that using a straight lactic acid or acidulated malt souring method was equal or better, and many people say that it's worse.

You are in luck. Lallemand now has a sort of 'lactobacillus like' yeast (as opposed to bacteria) by which to ferment and thereby create sours, thereby bypassing a need to introduce live lactobacillus bacteria, and/or to over-acidify. I.E., no need to try and figure out how to properly do it the old fashioned way.

You can control the acidity when using bacteria. You have no control over the acidity when using a lactic acid yeast. See the comparison chart in my article.

Plus that strain isn't sold in home brewer quantities, at least not that I could find.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I agree with you right up until this.
Co-souring is way easier and produces a much more flavorful product.


I understand there to be two different versions of Berliner Weisse in Germany, the modern and the traditional, and then there are a wide spectrum of Americanized versions which do not resemble either of the German versions. It's hard to compare beers based on a style label when there's such a wide variety, much less try to sort through why people may or may not like them.
(Listen to the Berliner Weisse milk the funk podcast.)

I have never seen anyone who has used bacteria for souring say that using a straight lactic acid or acidulated malt souring method was equal or better, and many people say that it's worse.

You can control the acidity when using bacteria. You have no control over the acidity when using a lactic acid yeast. See the comparison chart in my article.

Plus that strain isn't sold in home brewer quantities, at least not that I could find.

Oh I love my mixed ferms as much as the next guy, but if you want bugs isolated to hot side only it's really the only way.

Unless you have one of those ferment in your boil kettle systems, I guess.

I've heard that lactic yeast produces an extremely sour harsh product that needs blending. And that it's pretty bland. Haven't used it myself. Was asked to at the job, put a hold on that one.

 

[RPh_Guy]

''L. plantarum'' is extremely hop sensitive, so there's no need to boil it or keep it isolated.

The kettle souring method was useful back before we had this culture. Nowadays it only serves to complicate the process, reduce flavor, and increase risk of contamination.

Contamination is relatively common with kettle souring. I compiled a list of cases to demonstrate this point:
https://***************.com/wiki/Kettle_souring

 

[Gruel]

Have you never drank a sour beer? The Lactobacillus adds desirable flavor. Read the article I linked above and the Modern Souring sticky in the wild/lambic subforum.

I have had and liked lambics, but Berliner Weisse is a different thing.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have had and liked lambics, but Berliner Weisse is a different thing.

We all have our own personal preferences, but mixed fermentation sour beers are generally considered to have better flavor by pretty much any sour beer aficionado.

My vote is to go with fermenting separate batches, admixing the lactobacillus 'beer' to taste - and then just dumping it. What's wrong with good old normal beer flavor? Just because the Berliners couldn't keep lactobacillus out of their vats doesn't mean you have to follow their bad example. That stuff tastes just awful without raspberry or woodruff syrup! And who wants beer with sweetener??

Also, please be mindful that trolling is prohibited.