Puzzled by Lager

[Closet Fermenter]

I’m brewing my first lager, a Mexican cervesa using the Baja Mexican lager yeast, (two packs as recommended). I have never done a lager, mostly due to the fact that I don’t have a dedicated fermentation chamber and I live in the South. However, I had a freezer cleaned out to add a collar and taps, and decided to delay the project and try a lager.
I learned at the last minute that my “Little Boy” kegmenter was too wide to fit inside, so I diverted to a 10 gallon corny for the 5 gallon batch. I am using an inkbird controller set at 49° and it is controlling the temperature quite well. (Probe is taped to side of corny with a reflectix covering.)

The issue is that after two weeks, my tilt shows that it has only dropped from 1.048 OG to 1.035. Of course, I never see any action in the blowoff at this slow rate. The recipe said to perform the diacetyl rest after two weeks, but surely it needs to be closer to FG than this.

Is this normal? I have never fermented at this low a temperature, but expected it to go a little slower. I’m not in a particular rush, so I can just let it ride if that’s what I should do.

 

[Deadalus]

75% attenuation would result in FG of 1.012, so still a ways to go. You are about 1/3 of the way there. Morebeer lists 75-85% attenuation and suggests 50-56F for dermenting. 49 is on the low side for many lagers, so it will ferment slower. 80 G would be about 1.010. I haven't used that yeast but I would start warming up gradually over several days since you are low. 5-6 points before FG is one point to do the D-rest but since starting so low, maybe build a little cushion. Depends on the rate of drop near the end and consider hitting 55F.

Lagers do go faster in the low to mid fifties, but I find under 50 can be slow and sometimes a slow start.

 

[marc1]

Pop on a picnic tap and take a sample for a hydrometer reading

 

[Closet Fermenter]

75% attenuation would result in FG of 1.012, so still a ways to go. You are about 1/3 of the way there. Morebeer lists 75-85% attenuation and suggests 50-56F for dermenting. 49 is on the low side for many lagers, so it will ferment slower. 80 G would be about 1.010. I haven't used that yeast but I would start warming up gradually over several days since you are low. 5-6 points before FG is one point to do the D-rest but since starting so low, maybe build a little cushion. Depends on the rate of drop near the end and consider hitting 55F.

Lagers do go faster in the low to mid fifties, but I find under 50 can be slow and sometimes a slow start.

Thanks! I was considering that it might be ok to just start creeping the temps up a bit.

I did return and read that MoreBeer recommends 50-56F as you mentioned. I had ordered an extra pack, and just dug it out of the cooler thinking that I must have had some reason to select 49°

This assures me that I wasn’t just brain dead when I set the Inkbird, but I am definitely going to nudge it up a degree or two. Thanks again!

 

[rmr9]

I’d definitely bump it up a few degrees to see if you can get it rolling a bit more. Second the idea of taking a sample for a hydrometer reading.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Pop on a picnic tap and take a sample for a hydrometer reading

Good idea! I just bumped the temperature setting up a bit. If that doesn’t have any effect, I’ll definitely do this.

 

[fluketamer]

i find that most lager yeast do great up to 59 degrees and i cant notice the difference between that and say 45 except that 59 is much more likely to take off and ferment vigorously. and result in good clean beer.

i would def warm it up to the mid 50's at least and since you are already a third the way there i think you can safely go up to 62 degrees.

over 64 i sometimes get sulfer with lager yeast.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I have bad news for you, Closet Fermenter. You've only made one mistake: you used Baja. Frankly, it's a terrible strain and it shouldn't be sold. I did a batch with it about a year ago and did a write up on it in this thread. It's expensive, it's slow, and it punks out early. I'll never use it again. There are better, cheaper options available.

The good news is that you've done everything else right.

As a brewer that is new to lagers, 34/70 is an excellent strain to learn because it's very forgiving, fast, drops like a rock, attenuates reliably and deeply, and it can credibly produce any lager. If you'd prefer something a bit more malty, S-189 shares those same attributes.

Don't beat yourself up. You didn't do anything wrong, your yeast let you down.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I have bad news for you, Closet Fermenter. You've only made one mistake: you used Baja. Frankly, it's a terrible strain and it shouldn't be sold. I did a batch with it about a year ago and did a write up on it in this thread. It's expensive, it's slow, and it punks out early. I'll never use it again. There are better, cheaper options available.

The good news is that you've done everything else right.

As a brewer that is new to lagers, 34/70 is an excellent strain to learn because it's very forgiving, fast, drops like a rock, attenuates reliably and deeply, and it can credibly produce any lager. If you'd prefer something a bit more malty, S-189 shares those same attributes.

Don't beat yourself up. You didn't do anything wrong, your yeast let you down.

I appreciate your honesty here. Maybe I should have asked for recommendations here before jumping in; it just didn’t cross my mind.
At this point, I have nothing to lose in trying to get this one to limp its way to the finish line. Hopefully, I can get something acceptable out of it.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I appreciate your honesty here. Maybe I should have asked for recommendations here before jumping in; it just didn’t cross my mind.
At this point, I have nothing to lose in trying to get this one to limp its way to the finish line. Hopefully, I can get something acceptable out of it.

Again, you did nothing wrong. I think your plan for just seeing it out is a solid one. As others have suggested, I think raising your temp a bit to help the yeast along and finish as completely as possible is also a good idea. Once the yeast is actively fermenting, raising the temp gradually to about 60F shouldn't affect the beers flavor at all. The bulk of the yeast-derived flavor compounds are produced during the growth phase, so you're safe to let it raise.

At the end of the day, you'll get your first lager out of the deal, which is something to be proud of! Moreover, don't beat yourself up that you got played by Baja, many brewers have, and we all have our various first lager stories. Believe me, yours could be a lot worse. I know mine was!

At the end of the day, you're going to get lager beer. Next time, you'll get better lager beer.

 

[Dland]

I don't know about that particular yeast, but I've had better and more predictable fermentation results with cold lagers when I ferment them at 52F- 54F, otherwise they may stall, depending on yeast and gravity and fermentability of the wort. Of course higher temps make good lager too, but after 60F, without the time conditioning, it will likely be good beer, but not necessarily a traditional lager. Just an opinion.

Of course good lagers can be made at lower temps, even below 50F, but the lower it is fermented, the more important doing a good D rest is, (which cleans up a lot more than just diacetyl). It will also take a long long time.

A successful D rest requires paying attention to timing, it works best when it is started before yeast has finished initial fermentation. The cold side of the brewing process is just and important as the hot side, with lagers anyway. [;

 

[Bramling Cross]

I don't know about that particular yeast, but I've had better and more predictable fermentation results with cold lagers when I ferment them at 52F- 54F, otherwise they may stall, depending on yeast and gravity and fermentability of the wort. Of course higher temps make good lager too, but after 60F, without the time conditioning, it will likely be good beer, but not necessarily a traditional lager. Just an opinion.

Of course good lagers can be made at lower temps, even below 50F, but the lower it is fermented, the more important doing a good D rest is, (which cleans up a lot more than just diacetyl). It will also take a long long time.

A successful D rest requires paying attention to timing, it works best when it is started before yeast has finished initial fermentation. The cold side of the brewing process is just and important as the hot side, with lagers anyway. [;

I firmly agree with you Dland, regarding fermenting lagers cold. That said, I've learned to trust the modern fermentation method (pitch at 48F, raise to 52F once it's established, raise to 54F at half gravity, then let it finish the remaining 1/2 of gravity at 56F). It works flawlessly with 34/70 and S-189.

I think 60F is a good target for Baja because it is a known slow starter, slow worker, and weak finisher. It's a bad lager strain and it needs the help.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

As a brewer that is new to lagers, 34/70 is an excellent strain to learn because it's very forgiving, fast, drops like a rock, attenuates reliably and deeply, and it can credibly produce any lager.

34/70 isn't just for beginners, it's a solid, reliable and all around great yeast for most lagers. I have won a boat load of medals with this yeast, including a couple of NHC final medals. It's one of the best yeasts for an American Lager I have ever used and it makes a great German Pils. The only thing to watch out for is going below 50F, it becomes extremely slow. It's best at 50-52F. It's a beast @ 62F and remains clean even at elevated temperatures.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

34/70 isn't just for beginners, it's a solid, reliable and all around great yeast for most lagers. I have won a boat load of medals with this yeast, including a couple of NHC final medals. It's one of the best yeasts for an American Lager I have ever used and it makes a great German Pils. The only thing to watch out for is going below 50F, it becomes extremely slow. It's best at 50-52F. It's a beast @ 62F and remains clean even at elevated temperatures.

Sounds like a good plan for my next lager. The kick in the head is that I have some here that I recently ordered to attempt an American Lager. I just thought I’d be better off with a Mexican yeast for the cervesa.

The cervesa is slowly warming up in the cooler, but no action yet. It should reach the mid-50’s today and I am hoping for a little activity.
Thanks for all the feedback!

 

[bwible]

34/70 isn't just for beginners, it's a solid, reliable and all around great yeast for most lagers. I have won a boat load of medals with this yeast, including a couple of NHC final medals. It's one of the best yeasts for an American Lager I have ever used and it makes a great German Pils. The only thing to watch out for is going below 50F, it becomes extremely slow. It's best at 50-52F. It's a beast @ 62F and remains clean even at elevated temperatures.

34/70s description almost always includes the phrase “the most widely used lager strain in the world.”

 

[Deadalus]

Thanks! I was considering that it might be ok to just start creeping the temps up a bit.

I did return and read that MoreBeer recommends 50-56F as you mentioned. I had ordered an extra pack, and just dug it out of the cooler thinking that I must have had some reason to select 49°

View attachment 874486
This assures me that I wasn’t just brain dead when I set the Inkbird, but I am definitely going to nudge it up a degree or two. Thanks again!

I usually go to the manufacture's website but I hadn't looked this company up before so used the quick reference. As a first time use, I'd have stuck within their range myself too. When you get down below 50 for different lager yeasts I find that it's pretty critical to have a good amount of yeast pitched in order to get them going (which you did by pitching two packs).

I watch the Tilt these days and also airlock activity since I'm not using my carboys much to be able to see inside in order to start to warm up to the D-rest. After high krausen and as the activity starts to slow, I like to try to apply just a little "gas" by adding a degree per day roughly to keep the yeast working steadily. I don't have a repeater or bridge to read the Tilt so I have to be close to get a reading. I'll check once or twice a day if I remember to and that's when I may increase the temp. Towards the last third or fourth of the points of SG available. It's like getting over a hill while driving but then keeping your foot on the gas slightly to keep your speed up. And usually one of the days I forget to get downstairs to take a reading so I just ignore that and bump it up a degree the next day. But I made many lagers in the past where I didn't really know about diacetyl and I fermented them on the cold end too at a fixed temperature. I didn't have issues at all until that one time I did. So now I add it in.

 

[Willy]

Another plug for 34/70 - the yeast is amazing - clean, thorough and virtually tasteless in any bad ways. I like doing most of my lagers at 57°F - when I tried a few batches at low 50s - it took forever, usually adding an extra 4 days to finish.

You might try pitching a 34/70 pack and see if it cleans it up and finishes off the ferment.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I like doing most of my lagers at 57°F - when I tried a few batches at low 50s - it took forever, usually adding an extra 4 days to finish.

This is true. I just relistened to a Master Brewers podcast about Fermentis' profiling of their 34/70 yeast. The bottom line was that they came to the conclusion that it is an extremely stable yeast and it's profile was virtually unchanged from 51F to 68F. The biggest thing that changed with lower temperatures was that the fermentation was prolonged and it needed a larger pitch.

https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/216

I probably won't ferment my pils at 68, but I will likely move it up to 55-56F and see how it goes.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

You might try pitching a 34/70 pack and see if it cleans it up and finishes off the ferment.

That’s an excellent idea!

I am moving the temperature up a bit; reached the mid-50’s this morning. I might even take it on up to 60°. If I don’t get any better results than I have been getting, this sounds like a potential solution.

Appreciate it!

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Latest update: I moved the temperature gradually until I reached 57°. While it had only dropped 13 gravity points in the two weeks since I pitched the yeast, it has dropped 7 more points since I started raising the temperature yesterday afternoon. I might get this one to finish out after all! Can’t tell you how much I appreciate all the helpful advice.

 

[monkeymath]

I'm surprised that no one else questions the accuracy of the tilt's readings...? At least there are numerous reports of cases where some hop crud and yeast would get stuck to the sides of the tilt and throw off all the readings.

If you have the setup to pull a sample without introducing oxygen, then you might want to do that to make sure you're not solving problems you don't even have.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I'm surprised that no one else questions the accuracy of the tilt's readings...? At least there are numerous reports of cases where some hop crud and yeast would get stuck to the sides of the tilt and throw off all the readings.

If you have the setup to pull a sample without introducing oxygen, then you might want to do that to make sure you're not solving problems you don't even have.

Valid point. In this case, (and I don’t know if it’s really significant), the reading just gradually crept downward roughly a point or two a day and stopped around 1.035. Also, I never noticed any activity in the blowoff to make me think that it had actually worked off more than the Tilt showed.
I have raised the temperature up to 57° based upon some advice from someone with experience with this yeast and it has dropped on down to 1.027. That was more of a drop in one day than I had gotten in the previous week!
I really don’t trust the Tilts for delivering absolute numbers, but basically use them to gauge progress and indicate stability when it reaches its final gravity.
When it seems to have gotten close to the expected FG, I will pull a sample and see what I have, but while it appears to be making some progress, I will let it ride.
Thanks!

 

[Dland]

Tilt and similar products are like any other "fly by wire" controls or sensors, and are subject to more variables than directly connected sensors. I think there also may be possibility of a "crud factor" caused by krausen products on the sensor. My opinion only, as I do not use a remote sensor for brewing.

Anyway, if you see some progress, perhaps it is best not to open it up and test, unless you can draw without adding any O2. Good lager takes time, if the yeast is working, I'd say be patient and let it work out.

 

[Bassman2003]

Of course good lagers can be made at lower temps, even below 50F, but the lower it is fermented, the more important doing a good D rest is, (which cleans up a lot more than just diacetyl). It will also take a long long time.

I would say pitching enough yeast is more important than a D-rest. Homebrewers often under-pitch lagers. You want to gang up on a lager with a ton a fresh, healthy yeast. Then one does not need a D-rest because the yeast power through and do not leave any off flavors. The idea of a D-rest is to get the yeast to eat up any by products that they did not consume because they were worn out. If they were strong, they would consume the by products even at low temperatures.

How much is enough yeast? Everyone will balk at this but 4-5 packs for a 5 gallon batch. Then you will see a lager fermentation act like an ale fermentation. The main reason everyone says to 'be patient with lagers' is they most likely under pitched and the yeast are overwhelmed with the task at hand. So they take forever. I am not saying this to point fingers as I have struggled with this myself. I say it to help improve everybody's lagers.

Pitch a lot of yeast. I mean a lot a lot and then capture that yeast cake into a yeast brink (CO2 environment, no oxygen cold storage) and repitch all of the yeast for the next batch. Then you will get your money back for the 4-5 packs and have better fermentation to boot.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I would say pitching enough yeast is more important than a D-rest. Homebrewers often under-pitch lagers. You want to gang up on a lager with a ton a fresh, healthy yeast. Then one does not need a D-rest because the yeast power through and do not leave any off flavors. The idea of a D-rest is to get the yeast to eat up any by products that they did not consume because they were worn out. If they were strong, they would consume the by products even at low temperatures.

How much is enough yeast? Everyone will balk at this but 4-5 packs for a 5 gallon batch. Then you will see a lager fermentation act like an ale fermentation. The main reason everyone says to 'be patient with lagers' is they most likely under pitched and the yeast are overwhelmed with the task at hand. So they take forever. I am not saying this to point fingers as I have struggled with this myself. I say it to help improve everybody's lagers.

Pitch a lot of yeast. I mean a lot a lot and then capture that yeast cake into a yeast brink (CO2 environment, no oxygen cold storage) and repitch all of the yeast for the next batch. Then you will get your money back for the 4-5 packs and have better fermentation to boot.

Appreciate this. As a first time lager trial with a lager, I jumped in kinda blind, expecting it to act like my ales, but a bit slower.
I will have to be sure to keep this information for my next attempt and see if I can get better results.
A couple of questions: 1) Is there a procedure for taking the original yeast and building it up to a 10 gallon batch pitch? 2) Are there any risks in over pitching yeasts?

 

[An Ankoù]

I'm confused by the nature of Mexican Cerveza. What is it? Everyone seems to be talking about a kind of lager, but it looks a long way away from a pilsner. I see it contains corn and I know (or I think I know) that cream ale is also heavy on adjuncts. Is there a difference?
I don't think I've ever tasted either style. We have something called Corona here, but it looks very industrial and mass produced. Any clarification would be most welcome.

 

[Bassman2003]

Appreciate this. As a first time lager trial with a lager, I jumped in kinda blind, expecting it to act like my ales, but a bit slower.
I will have to be sure to keep this information for my next attempt and see if I can get better results.
A couple of questions: 1) Is there a procedure for taking the original yeast and building it up to a 10 gallon batch pitch? 2) Are there any risks in over pitching yeasts?

I did not catch what batch size you brewed this lager for? If it was 10 gallons then 2 packs of yeast was a decent underpitch. No, it is pretty difficult to over pitch.

For 10 gallons I would brew a 5 gallon batch (starting with plenty of yeast) then brew the 10 gallon batch and use all of the yeast from the cake. Otherwise you would need a lot of starter steps to make enough yeast.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I am certainly no expert, but as I understand it, it is just a Mexican lager. Corona and Modelo are two examples made by the same brewery in Mexico. This was my first lager, and it was a simple recipe; one that wouldn’t make me cry too much if it didn’t turn out well.
On the other hand, if it turns out OK, it’s still a Mexican cervesa; not particularly my favorite style.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I did not catch what batch size you brewed this lager for? If it was 10 gallons then 2 packs of yeast was a decent underpitch. No, it is pretty difficult to over pitch.

For 10 gallons I would brew a 5 gallon batch (starting with plenty of yeast) then brew the 10 gallon batch and use all of the yeast from the cake. Otherwise you would need a lot of starter steps to make enough yeast.

It is a 5 gallon batch, and I used two packs. You answered my question perfectly; I was wondering if I could use this yeast cake for a 10 gallon batch if this recipe turns out ok.

I do have one follow up question. Since I have this batch down in a Inkbird controlled freezer to ferment and lager, I was thinking about just serving it right out of the fermenter/corny without disturbing it and stirring up all the sediment. If necessary, I could do a pressure transfer, (this one has a floating dip tube). I hear of folks serving right off the yeast, but I have never tried it. If I should do this, does it mean I forfeit the opportunity to reuse the yeast, or is it still a viable option?

 

[Bassman2003]

As long as the yeast never sees oxygen it stands a better chance than any other method to be reused. So I would say yes.