Pulling Grain From Mash For Decoction

[awoitte]

According to this article a decoction should pull off grain and just enough water so that the grain isn't scorched while boiling. If using a false bottom I'm not going to be able to pull grain from my ball valve.

Seems like a silly question but can a person simply "grab" grain off the top of the mash in order to achieve a typical grain/liquid ratio for boiling/decocting

 

[balrog]

I've always seen them use SS pitchers or ladles to dip out of the top of the mash.

 

[rburrelli]

I can’t really think of any way to do it other than from the top.

 

[BigEd]

According to this article a decoction should pull off grain and just enough water so that the grain isn't scorched while boiling. If using a false bottom I'm not going to be able to pull grain from my ball valve.

Seems like a silly question but can a person simply "grab" grain off the top of the mash in order to achieve a typical grain/liquid ratio for boiling/decocting

I'm not sure what you mean by "pull grain from my ball valve". How deep is your grain bed? Just mix it up a bit and scoop out the grain. A stainless steel kitchen strainer is a good tool for the job. The strainer lets liquid run off easily. When pulling the grain do it by weight. One third of the mash (grain & water) is the rule of thumb but a little extra is usually a good idea as most novices tend to come up short on temperature. Rather than guess with liquid from the mash putting a quart or so in the decoction vessel and heating prior to adding grain gives you a buffer against scorching as well as a leg up on temperature.

 

[jcav]

I use a one quart stainless steel ladle. I scoop out the grain from the top of the mash tun with the ladle and pull out about 1 quart per pound of grain used in the recipe. So if there is lets say 10 pounds of grain I pull out 10 quarts of grain in the ladle and add it to the pot to be used for boiling. You can pull out some liquid in the ladle in the first few pulls, as you need some liquid in the pot with the grain so it does not scorch. As you pull out the rest of the quarts of grain you can hold the ladle against the side of the mash tun and let the liquid drain off before adding to the pot. Hope this helps. The picture above of the ladle is the same one I use.....


John

 

[awoitte]

This makes sense now after watching a few videos. For some reason I thought decoction and vorlauf went hand in hand but they're completely separate from each other, I'm now in the know =)

 

[day_trippr]

The whole decoction thing is fascinating - it gets pretty close to making the enzymes work the way we wish they would - without that extra effort

Cheers!

 

[mashpaddled]

I've never thought too deeply about the thickness of the decoction. I just try to scoop out what I need from the mash so I get plenty of grain and some liquid. Never had a problem with conversion or temperature raises.

 

[Vale71]

I wouldn't sweat it with the thick decoction thing as it's more a thing of the past, when malt had much less diastatic power and nobody did a saccharification step before boiling the decoction since the thermometer hadn't been invented yet (which is the reason why people did decoctions in the first place, in case anyone was wondering). With modern malt you can just pull a portion of the mash without trying to favor solids over liquid, do a step at 70°C for 15 minutes and then boil and you won't run out of diastatic power.
The mash out step is where it's really important to try and just pull liquid with as little solids as possible since you don't want to release any unconverted starch. But again unless you actually have a mash tun with no heat source you can skip the mash out decoction as it doesn't really bring much as far as flavor is concerned.

 

[mkopec1]

Never tried this but would it not stop the conversion of the grains you pull out of the pot to boil? I know its an old technique, but does it still convert after boiling?

Ahh, NM I read the article, the decoction is first raised to 158 and held there for 15 min and then boiled.

 

[PaleRider76]

Never tried this but would it not stop the conversion of the grains you pull out of the pot to boil? I know its an old technique, but does it still convert after boiling?

Ahh, NM I read the article, the decoction is first raised to 158 and held there for 15 min and then boiled.

I’ve never tried either but want to for my next batch. Gordon Strong has a section on it in his Brewing Better Beer book that is worth a read. The example recipe he gives for that mash technique is the one I’m going to try out. It’s a doppelbock.

 

[BigEd]

Never tried this but would it not stop the conversion of the grains you pull out of the pot to boil? I know its an old technique, but does it still convert after boiling?

Ahh, NM I read the article, the decoction is first raised to 158 and held there for 15 min and then boiled.

This is why you want to leave most of the liquid behind when pulling a decoction. The enzymes are in solution, so yes, whatever enzymes are subjected to boiling will be denatured. However, the boiling does help release the maximum amount of convertible starches from the grain. Also if you do a very traditional decoction the pulled grains would be subjected to a conversion temperature rest before the boiling stage.

 

[Bassman2003]

I remember Dan Gordon from Gordon Biersch saying they did their single decoction after the 160f step to raise to mashout temps. This way, most if not all of your enzymatic activity would have already taken place. Then you are just boiling the decoction for the effect it brings. He described exploding the starches and adding a deeper malt flavor. If I were to ever do one, this is what I would follow.

 

[Robert65]

I remember Dan Gordon from Gordon Biersch saying they did their single decoction after the 160f step to raise to mashout temps. This way, most if not all of your enzymatic activity would have already taken place. Then you are just boiling the decoction for the effect it brings. He described exploding the starches and adding a deeper malt flavor. If I were to ever do one, this is what I would follow.

Mash-off is the last place I'd do one, if doing just one. Exploding starches post enzymatic activity... nope.

It should be noted in this conversation that traditionally, with poorly modified, low enzyme malts, decoction, at least in part, substituted for enzymes. Boiling will break down starches and proteins. There are three ways the breakdown (hydrolysis) of proteins and starches can be achieved: enzymes, heat, or acid.

 

[Bassman2003]

I found the episode on the Brewing Network and Dan says the decoction breaks down starches that would normally not be broken down by mash temperature alone. So he is viewing Decoction as a way to further the work of the mash enzymes, thus doing it later to let the mash do all it can do on its own. To me, this sounds like a "modern" decoction where the malt is fairly modified and not needing a decoction.

 

[Vale71]

Also if you do a very traditional decoction the pulled grains would be subjected to a conversion temperature rest before the boiling stage.

Actually, it's the other way around. Decoction was used because the modern thermometer hadn't been invented yet, so there was no way of performing rests at a given temperature. The only way to implement a repeatable process was to use pre-determined volumes of boiling water/wort as boiling temperature is constant for a given altitude. The correct volumes were found by trial-and-error and the knowledge was then passed on from master to apprentice for generations.

 

[bracconiere]

i just drain wort out of my mash tun, and bring it to a boil...add it back in, and stir.....no scorching problems

 

[bracconiere]

It should be noted in this conversation that traditionally, with poorly modified, low enzyme malts, decoction, at least in part, substituted for enzymes.

didn't catch that at first glance...maybe that's why with my homemalt i get better efficiency when i do a two or three step mash, protein, beta, alpha, at 125f, 150f, 162f.....

 

[Bassman2003]

i just drain wort out of my mash tun, and bring it to a boil...add it back in, and stir.....no scorching problems

This is not the traditional way but I would like to see a side by side because it is a lot easier!

If it is all about exploding the starches, it really depends upon where those starches are. If they are in solution then boiling the liquid only would work but I suspect that what is in solution is what the normal mash process can take care of. The rest is probably locked inside the grain, hence the need to boil the grain.

 

[cubalz]

I've always seen them use SS pitchers or ladles to dip out of the top of the mash.
View attachment 663078

This is how I have always done it.

 

[Robert65]

This is not the traditional way but I would like to see a side by side because it is a lot easier!

If it is all about exploding the starches, it really depends upon where those starches are. If they are in solution then boiling the liquid only would work but I suspect that what is in solution is what the normal mash process can take care of. The rest is probably locked inside the grain, hence the need to boil the grain.

What is in solution is the enzymes, the starches you want to liberate are indeed in the solids. So boiling the liquid and not the solids is doubly the opposite of what you want to do. The liquid portion is pulled and boiled as a "lauter mash" at the end of the process, precisely for the purpose if denaturation of the enzymes at mashing off.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't know all the history or the science of it and have only done one. I took my procedure from a video by Michael Dawson. I believe it was one of the Brewing TV series. I scooped out the amount suggested, no rest, boiled it, added it back and proceeded. It was a lager and it increased the OG quite a bit above the predicted. The flavor was amazing.

i just drain wort out of my mash tun, and bring it to a boil...add it back in, and stir.....no scorching problems

This is not a decoction. It is something else that I have never heard anyone else doing. Who knows, it may create amazing beers.
OH yea, I guess you would know.

 

[balrog]

IF you boil only the liquid you are denaturing and stopping enzymes from converting starch to sugar.

Not typically what you want to do.

 

[Vale71]

Here's the quick summary of how mashes were conducted before the invention of a modern thermometer (mercury thermometer, circa 1714 by Dutch scientist Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit).

1 - Single infusion mashing

X amount of cold water was mixed with Y amount of boiling water to achieve strike temperature. Grains were mashed in and temperature held until saccharification. Optional mash-out step by adding Z amount of boiling water. No decoction ever pulled. Typical process in Britain.

2 - Decoction mashing German style

Grist was mashed in cold water and held for acid rest. A series of thick decoctions was pulled to achieve different rest temperatures. A final mash-out decoction was performed with a thin (i.e. liquid) mash.

3 - Decoction masing Belgian style

After mash in a series of thin (i.e. liquid) decoctions was pulled and boiled to achieve different rest temperatues all the way to mash out. This most likely resulted in diastatic deficiency leading to partial conversion and a so-called turbid mash.

 

[bracconiere]

OH yea, I guess you would know.

LOL, i've gone taste blind, i just know it gives me a bump in alcohol......(i still have feelings! )


edit: (i can barley tell the difference between a stout, and a lager)

 

[day_trippr]

Woof.
Maybe a "Dry February" is in order...

Cheers!

 

[Robert65]

Woof.
Maybe a "Dry February" is in order...

Cheers!

We would all feel a great disturbance in the Force... [emoji6]

 

[BigEd]

Actually, it's the other way around. Decoction was used because the modern thermometer hadn't been invented yet, so there was no way of performing rests at a given temperature. The only way to implement a repeatable process was to use pre-determined volumes of boiling water/wort as boiling temperature is constant for a given altitude. The correct volumes were found by trial-and-error and the knowledge was then passed on from master to apprentice for generations.

Yes, I know. The point I was trying to make was that when pulling a decoction portion it can be held at temp rests between its original temp in the tun and boiling point. This allows all grain in the original mash to be subjected to the mid-range conversion temperature rests.

 

[Soulshine2]

i just drain wort out of my mash tun, and bring it to a boil...add it back in, and stir.....no scorching problems

me too

 

[Soulshine2]

ive

didn't catch that at first glance...maybe that's why with my homemalt i get better efficiency when i do a two or three step mash, protein, beta, alpha, at 125f, 150f, 162f.....

I've done the same, slightly different temps but same process. 122,148 and 160 ...

 

[DatsyukianDeke]

Where di you guys get your 32oz dipper from? Places I've looked at online charge insane shipping rates.

 

[bracconiere]

ive

I've done the same, slightly different temps but same process. 122,148 and 160 ...

lol, being that i add gluco to all my beers, and the protein rest is pretty lose range...that's what i do too....gives me about a 5-6% bump up in efficiency with the separate alpha rest, not sure if it's the enzymes or maybe more starch gel'ing

edit: they say a mash out temp of 167f, but maybe 162 would be better, alpha is still active.....and maybe it gels more starch for conversion.....

 

[Soulshine2]

lol, being that i add gluco to all my beers, and the protein rest is pretty lose range...that's what i do too....gives me about a 5-6% bump up in efficiency with the separate alpha rest, not sure if it's the enzymes or maybe more starch gel'ing

edit: they say a mash out temp of 167f, but maybe 162 would be better, alpha is still active.....and maybe it gels more starch for conversion.....

i dont do the suggested mashout temps usually . i do my mash and rests then hit my pre-boil volume during the sparge process. Ive been consistently hitting correct numbers .

 

[bracconiere]

i dont do the suggested mashout temps usually . i do my mash and rests then hit my pre-boil volume during the sparge process. Ive been consistently hitting correct numbers .

i'd be curious since you do the separate alpha rest like me if you noticed a bump in efficiency with it also?

 

[awoitte]

Where di you guys get your 32oz dipper from? Places I've looked at online charge insane shipping rates.

+1 on this. NB doesn't sell them any longer and online reviews have me skeptical about buying from amazon vendors that show them available..

 

[jcav]

Sorry, I went to send you guys the link to the one I bought on Amazon, but it is currently not available........


John

 

[riceral]

Sorry, I went to send you guys the link to the one I bought on Amazon, but it is currently not available........


John

Maybe not exactly what you are looking for-----

But a 1 or 2 quart measuring cup would work just as well.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=1+quart+...ix=1+quart+pyrex+,aps,164&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_7_14

 

[Soulshine2]

i'd be curious since you do the separate alpha rest like me if you noticed a bump in efficiency with it also?

honestly , i dont even check that . i use a brewing calculator of sorts through the HBS website I used to get my stuff back in Illinois, Chicago Brew Werks . Its usually set at 75%. I do my rests at temps for times avg from Daniels book for the style Im making at the moment. I figure as long as my numbers are close, im good. So far, my numbers havent been just close ,but spot on. I mean, I suppose if I ran my numbers to check efficiency I could( and should now that youve asked) .I havent had one yet that I was one bit dissatisfied with in the glass. In fact, I cant say my beers are improving because I dont make the same beer more than once except for my wifes Bavarian Hef I keep handy. Last one I made was an exact repeat of the second (which was my own recipe)but third hef for her. According to her my beer making skills have greatly improved with every beer I make. Shes the only beer judge I need besides myself. Right now I'm finishing up a Weyermann Barke Pilsner based homemade recipe lager with 2 ounces of Hallertauer , probably bottle today . I reached target FG yesterday after a little tech/temp issue I had, all good now. Tastes /looks wonderful and as planned.

 

[Soulshine2]

i'd be curious since you do the separate alpha rest like me if you noticed a bump in efficiency with it also?

I guess when I think about it , i used to do a single infusion...since I started the step mashes with that extra rest i do notice a little more depth in my beer . so , without going through the formula and checking numbers I would guess so.

 

[kh54s10]

Found this one with a search for Quart sized stainless steel ladle: https://www.amazon.com/Winco-SHHD-1...e+stainless+steel+ladle&qid=1580140724&sr=8-6