PSI Question

[Yacov327]

I recently finished a major overhaul of my kegerator. I‘ll throw a picture up later.

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
I moved the CO2 outside the kegerator, then comes a T inside the kegerator to I can force carb 1 keg in the kegerator at 38F. Then comes a second regulator so I can keep my other kegs at serving pressure.

QUESTION
What PSI do I set the CO2 at outside the kegerator to properly force carb the keg that is on the T at 38? In the past I would set it at 12 or so when the CO2 was also 38F. Do I now need to set it higher since it is at room temp? Or does only the beer temp matter?

 

[TenaCJed]

My understanding is that the beer temp is what matters and not the tank temp of the CO2. My tank is external and I always set PSI to what is appropriate for the style of beer and I have not had any issues.

 

[bracconiere]

you got me curious. if you carb at 12psi, and consider that a 'burst' carb, what's your serving pressure?

i think the temperature of the tank will just effect the high pressure guage because it will effect the ability of the co2 to be a liquid?

 

[tracer bullet]

Interesting question. I suspect "no difference". Even with the CO2 moved outside, you still have the same psi set, and it's still going to the same cold beer, and so...

I want to cite PV=nRT but with the regulator, that doesn't apply.

Also curious about your pressures. I'm sure they are OK for you but I think most would consider force carb to be about double or triple the 12psi, and 12psi to be closer to serving pressure. Not implying you are doing it wrong, just - curious.

 

[bracconiere]

and 12psi to be closer to serving pressure. Not implying you are doing it wrong,

i'm concerned he has improper serving lines, looking at that pic the bev line looks like it's the same size as the gas?

@Yacov327 i just want to make sure you don't think you need to reduce pressure to like 2-3 psi to serve. i did that for years in the beggining, before i learned on the morebeer forum how to do it right.. want to spare you if i can, and that's what's going on.

 

[TenaCJed]

That is EVABarrier tubing, the outer dimension is the same for gas and liquid. The internal can be different though with most doing 4mm ID for liquid and 5mm ID for gas.

 

[bracconiere]

That is EVABarrier tubing, the outer dimension is the same for gas and liquid. The internal can be different though with most doing 4mm ID for liquid and 5mm ID for gas.

thanks for clarifying

 

[Deadalus]

That is EVABarrier tubing, the outer dimension is the same for gas and liquid. The internal can be different though with most doing 4mm ID for liquid and 5mm ID for gas.

There's also a 9.5 mm OD Evabarrier with a 6.3mm ID as well as push to connect fittings sized for the same OD. It's not all the same OD, people should be careful when purchasing and be aware that there are different sizes for both the ID and OD. With Duotight, the ptc fittings appear to follow the convention of gray for the 8mm OD and white for the 9.5 OD.

 

[Deadalus]

At 38F and 12 psi, you would be force carbing your beer to 2.58 volumes. If that is the particular carbonation level you want for your beer use 12 psi. If you would like a different level, perhaps based on style, look up "force carbonation chart" and use the 38F line in the chart. I don't think it matters that the tank is outside the kegerator. You would also need to have the primary regulator set higher than the secondary.

 

[TenaCJed]

There's also a 9.5 mm OD Evabarrier with a 6.3mm ID as well as push to connect fittings sized for the same OD. It's not all the same OD, people should be careful when purchasing and be aware that there are different sizes for both the ID and OD. With Duotight, the ptc fittings appear to follow the convention of gray for the 8mm OD and white for the 9.5 OD.

When I got mine it was just the 8mm OD, was not aware they put out another size.

 

[doug293cz]

All that matters for setting CO2 pressure is the beer temp, as that's what determines how much CO2 will dissolve in the beer at a given pressure.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

...

Also curious about your pressures. I'm sure they are OK for you but I think most would consider force carb to be about double or triple the 12psi, and 12psi to be closer to serving pressure. Not implying you are doing it wrong, just - curious.

Forced carbonation is using bottled CO2 to carbonate, rather than CO2 formed by fermentation in a sealed vessel (aka natural carbonation.) Accelerated forced (or burst) carbonation is using higher than "chart" pressure, and/or agitation of the keg, to speed up CO2 dissolution compared to the rate when using "chart" pressure.

Brew on

 

[tracer bullet]

^^^ Agreed. I see what you're saying. Forced isn't a complete way to say it, accelerated forced / burst is what I have in mind. I think most do but it's an important point. Some would set at serving pressure and leave for a longer while i.e.a week or more. That would still be forced.

 

[Deadalus]

When I got mine it was just the 8mm OD, was not aware they put out another size.

No harm no foul. Yeah I don't know the history of it but if Evabarrier didn't just have the 8mm OD first, it seemed like that size may have been only stocked initially at some home brew stores along with the Duotight fittings in the same OD. I remember when I first ordered I didn't see any of the 9.5mm either. Then I needed a replacement fitting about a year later. Some stores used 5/16" and some 8mm so I was being careful and then all of a sudden a 9.5mm (3/8) OD popped up and I was like WTF because it was the only fitting in that size available. I think it was a 9.5mm x beer shank so it looked correct but wouldn't have fit 8mm.

 

[bracconiere]

Forced carbonation is using bottled CO2 to carbonate, rather than CO2 formed by fermentation in a sealed vessel (aka natural carbonation.) Accelerated forced (or burst) carbonation is using higher than "chart" pressure, and/or agitation of the keg, to speed up CO2 dissolution compared to the rate when using "chart" pressure.

Brew on

true, but then why have a second regulator and hook up 'to force carb at 12psi with' then put it at 'serving pressure'. that's what threw me for a loop....?

I moved the CO2 outside the kegerator, then comes a T inside the kegerator to I can force carb 1 keg in the kegerator at 38F. Then comes a second regulator so I can keep my other kegs at serving pressure.

In the past I would set it at 12 or so when the CO2 was also 38F.

sounds kinda like the people that are new to kegging, and doing the ol' carb then serve at 2psi trick so that it doesn't pour all foam...?

 

[tracer bullet]

'to force carb at 12psi with' then put it at 'serving pressure'.

You might, as I do, think of "force carb" as setting the regulator higher (or much higher) than serving pressure for a short time. But - if you have a keg you just filled with flat / uncarbonated beer, you could "force carb" it simply by hooking up CO2 at serving pressure. It'll take longer than if you bump it higher, but it could be called force carb sicne CO2 is being forced into solution. Even at serving pressure.

To me "force carb" is something higher and for shorter. Some let it sit for a day at 30 psi perhaps, me I set to like 14psi and roll the keg on the floor 10 - 15 minutes. But it'd be true to say letting it sit at serving pressure for a week is also considered force carbed.

If I understood your question correctly. I might not have.

 

[sibelman]

So, "force" sounds, er, forceful - stronger than regular. But it's been used for a long time to mean adding carbonation from a CO2 tank, rather than naturally from fermentation (as in bottling/priming, spunding, whatnot). This complicates communication, 'cuz we don't agree on the meaning of words <sigh>.

 

[DuncB]

@Yacov327
I have my keg fridge set up in a similar way to you.
CO2 cylinder and regulator outside and set to 30 psi.
First T inside either goes to a Sodawater keg or if I need to accelerate the carbonation towards final CO2 vols then I can plug that keg onto the " soda " line for 24 hours or so to accelerate the carbonation. Then I move that keg to a normal beer gas line beyond the inline regulator. In reality I rarely accelerate carbonation for my beers as most I finish off under pressure aiming for target CO2 vols or just put them on the serving end of the CO2 system and give it time.
I have the inline regulator set to 14 psi but checking with another lower reading larger gauge ( which is outside the fridge) that I spurred off the rest of the gas lines this is actually 12.5 psi.
This seems high for beer at 6 celsius but my kegs all have non return ball locks on them which does steal about 1 psi to each keg. Ignore the temperature it's a broken STC that I only use for temp reading but it fluctuates all over the place and I should just park an Ispindel in the fridge.

 

[bracconiere]

You might, as I do, think of "force carb" as setting the regulator higher (or much higher) than serving pressure for a short time. But - if you have a keg you just filled with flat / uncarbonated beer, you could "force carb" it simply by hooking up CO2 at serving pressure. It'll take longer than if you bump it higher, but it could be called force carb sicne CO2 is being forced into solution. Even at serving pressure.

To me "force carb" is something higher and for shorter. Some let it sit for a day at 30 psi perhaps, me I set to like 14psi and roll the keg on the floor 10 - 15 minutes. But it'd be true to say letting it sit at serving pressure for a week is also considered force carbed.

If I understood your question correctly. I might not have.

i'm really waiting to see how this works out!

 

[bracconiere]

@Yacov327
I have my keg fridge set up in a similar way to you.
CO2 cylinder and regulator outside and set to 30 psi.
First T inside either goes to a Sodawater keg or if I need to accelerate the carbonation towards final CO2 vols then I can plug that keg onto the " soda " line for 24 hours or so to accelerate the carbonation. Then I move that keg to a normal beer gas line beyond the inline regulator. In reality I rarely accelerate carbonation for my beers as most I finish off under pressure aiming for target CO2 vols or just put them on the serving end of the CO2 system and give it time.
I have the inline regulator set to 14 psi but checking with another lower reading larger gauge ( which is outside the fridge) that I spurred off the rest of the gas lines this is actually 12.5 psi.
This seems high for beer at 6 celsius but my kegs all have non return ball locks on them which does steal about 1 psi to each keg. Ignore the temperature it's a broken STC that I only use for temp reading but it fluctuates all over the place and I should just park an Ispindel in the fridge.
View attachment 766655

you have drapes in a windowed fridge?

 

[DuncB]

Well I couldn't pull back the blinds very well!

 

[bracconiere]

Well I couldn't pull back the blinds very well!

bad cable management? no RGB? lol

 

[doug293cz]

So, "force" sounds, er, forceful - stronger than regular. But it's been used for a long time to mean adding carbonation from a CO2 tank, rather than naturally from fermentation (as in bottling/priming, spunding, whatnot). This complicates communication, 'cuz we don't agree on the meaning of words <sigh>.

This is exactly right. Language only works if we have common definitions for words. If everyone decides that they like a different definition better, then we won't be able to communicate.

Brew on

 

[bracconiere]

This is exactly right. Language only works if we have common definitions for words. If everyone decides that they like a different definition better, then we won't be able to communicate.

Brew on

how hard a force? or natural?

 

[DuncB]

I tried " using the force " but CO2 worked better.

 

[sibelman]

how hard a force? or natural?

A force of nature!

 

[DuncB]

bad cable management? no RGB? lol

Not the aesthetically great looking through the glass at the various kegs and lines, bottles etc. Also a bit of extra insulation as well.
I need a waterproof piece of art on the inside of the glass that adds insulation. On my todo list after the bar is built.

 

[bracconiere]

Not the aesthetically great looking through the glass at the various kegs and lines, bottles etc. Also a bit of extra insulation as well.
I need a waterproof piece of art on the inside of the glass that adds insulation. On my todo list after the bar is built.

something like this would be 'cool' if you got the right temp range...

https://www.culturehustleusa.com/pr...bOY0D8xQtjkMbfBjSCvkUDLZVeI-rsnoaAnTlEALw_wcB
might be a good way to tell how much is left in the kegs?

 

[DuncB]

@bracconiere
Funny you should point me to that product. I have followed the artist who developed the black for a few years now. I was thinking of going over the black on the outside of the keg fridge with black 2.0.
But actually just painting in onto a substrate of some kind behind the glass might give a very spooky effect. Apparently it's like looking into nothing when it's on a surface.
They also make the pinkest pink but that might be too much of a contrast.

 

[bracconiere]

i wonder if 2.5vols of co2 in solution would change the temp enough to tell when a keg is carbed visually from the outside?

 

[DuncB]

The shift colour change only works between 24 and 29 Celsius, so it might work for low end kveik ferments or saisons. Not sure I want my beer to quaff at that temp.
But if black 3.0 can cope with some damp painting inside of keg fridge, kegs and plumbing with black 3.0 might hide the mess and be very weird.