Nobody felt insulted. We felt like you had already decided that the yeast have nothing to do with it and were looking for validation rather than information.
Pseudo Vs Traditional Lager
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It is perfectly acceptable to disagree with others' assertions, as long as you stick to the topic of discussion, and avoid making it personal.
doug293cz
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Peaty Jones
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Oh okay, now I get it. Thanks for clearing it out.
No I honestly dont know If the yeast has something to do with it or not. Thats what im trying to search answer to.
The temperature, the time in conditioning/lagering, and the yeast are variables that act up on the other variables.
I tried the A/B test... A nice blonde ale (saf US-05) ready to drink in 10 days, via pressure fermentation at 10 psi. Compared to a lager with lager yeast (saf 34-70) fermented for 2 weeks and lagered for 3 weeks before serving. And tried it again and again.
The true, do it proper !!! Lager is better and enough to notice. The blonde ale was a gorgeous European model and quite tempting but the true lager was like an angel that took you to heaven.
Just my own results and experience. My bias? I wanted the faster faster faster to win. Whether ale yeast or a hybrid like Novalager ... Time is of the essence. It takes time.
I tried the A/B test... A nice blonde ale (saf US-05) ready to drink in 10 days, via pressure fermentation at 10 psi. Compared to a lager with lager yeast (saf 34-70) fermented for 2 weeks and lagered for 3 weeks before serving. And tried it again and again.
The true, do it proper !!! Lager is better and enough to notice. The blonde ale was a gorgeous European model and quite tempting but the true lager was like an angel that took you to heaven.
Just my own results and experience. My bias? I wanted the faster faster faster to win. Whether ale yeast or a hybrid like Novalager ... Time is of the essence. It takes time.
Apples and oranges. Or maybe mangoes and watermelons.
I'd like to go back to @Witherby's post #3 and quote just one sentence from Charlie Bamforth's "Provocation":
"In terms of flavour, the advocates for lagering insist that there needs to be a handling of vicinal diketones, acetaldehyde, and hydrogen sulphide. However, all of these can be controlled through attention to primary fermentation."
So here at least, he's not suggesting that lagering doesn't do anything. He's saying that there may very well be other ways to accomplish the things that lagering does. And frankly I'd be shocked if there weren't. There's always more than one way to get from point A to point B (except in certain parts of Maine, where you really can't get there from here). But it also wouldn't surprise me if there are a whole bunch of pseudo-lagers that don't actually get to point B because the brewers were just looking for a short cut rather than actually paying attention to what had to be accomplished along the route.
user 246304
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Just want to say excellent thread.
OP, if you want to see the difference between the fermentation profiles, why not isolate everything but that? And I think 34-70 would be a great choice for this. I've never pressure fermented anything, but I would love to do a traditional long-lager with a really slow cool-down ("traditional" - don't have Noonan or a German source handy at the moment, but something like Braukaiser's "traditional" - 2 days 43, 4 days 48, 8 days' rest at 48, 4 months' very gradual cool down and hold at 32. Might even go to 8 months or so for a traditional Festbier or Märzen) v. my usual (typical - primary x 7 days at 52, 4 days D-rest at 60, 6 days cool-down to 34F, 2 1/2 months lager).
edit: lol, crossed in the mail with @mac_1103.
Just a thought but I think comparing an ale with 05 (very clean) with a lager 34-70 is comparing apples to oranges a bit. Though both are clean yeasts it seems it might be difficult to get a good assessment, though I'm sure they both were great.
OP, if you want to see the difference between the fermentation profiles, why not isolate everything but that? And I think 34-70 would be a great choice for this. I've never pressure fermented anything, but I would love to do a traditional long-lager with a really slow cool-down ("traditional" - don't have Noonan or a German source handy at the moment, but something like Braukaiser's "traditional" - 2 days 43, 4 days 48, 8 days' rest at 48, 4 months' very gradual cool down and hold at 32. Might even go to 8 months or so for a traditional Festbier or Märzen) v. my usual (typical - primary x 7 days at 52, 4 days D-rest at 60, 6 days cool-down to 34F, 2 1/2 months lager).
edit: lol, crossed in the mail with @mac_1103.
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VikeMan
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I agree with this sentiment, but unless we're willing to wait a really long time before moving beer to its lagering vessel, there will be more that just yeast left in suspension, even with the tightest process. Some proteins and polyphenols will still be there, because cold crashing for a few days or a week doesn't drop them all. (Though at some point, a long cold crash becomes lagering...thus my qualifier of "a really long time.") During the lagering period, they will gradually settle out. But I agree 100% that "trub" should be excluded.
I have my opinions about traditional lagering and all the other short and shoddy methods to simulate a lager but I'll just ask this question to provoke some thought. If there was a way to achieve a beer that can't be distinguished from a traditionally long cold-aged lager, wouldn't every CFO of macro breweries be all over it? Shorter production times are profit.
I am sure I could do research about how much liquid is lagered / fermented at one time for the big boys. that amount of liquid weight adds pressure to the overall tank. Just my thoughts verses small batch brewing.
I have had half barrel pressure fermented bohemian lagers and not sure my pallet would be able to tell the difference. If i had the $ i would be all in for nice SS conical with pressure abilities.
but if I were to make an Oktoberfest traditional it would be.
Edit
I may have missed stuff about yeast, but lager yeast should be in lager beer.
As for the, is yeast doing anything during lagering question this is what I know. A program on Discovery channel called Factories did the AB brewery in St Louis where the cellar master showed the horizontal LAGERING tanks being stuffed with boiled beech wood lath (looking like a fish crib). He stated it gave the yeast 4-5 times the surface area then just the flat bottom so the yeast can complete there job.
There has been a recent trend toward warm fermented lagers using 34/70. But the warm fermentation is just that - the fermentation part. You still need to lager the beer.
The idea is you can skip the 50 degree fermentation and do it at ale temps if you don’t have a spare fridge or other temp control. But you still need to lager the beer at around 35 degrees or so for a few weeks after the main fermentation is over.
I have tried this and it made a passable beer. But I have a lager fridge now.
People have been trying pseudo lagers, including me. I played around trying to use different ale yeasts for maybe a year and a half before I had my lager fridge. None of them produce anything like a lager. The beera are night and day. I haven’t played with kviek yeast but people here say they have made clean beers with it up to 90 or 95 degrees or something.
The Germans wouldn’t still be lagering after hundreds of years if there weren’t something to it. Professional people with education and resources we don’t have would have found a better way if one existed.
The idea is you can skip the 50 degree fermentation and do it at ale temps if you don’t have a spare fridge or other temp control. But you still need to lager the beer at around 35 degrees or so for a few weeks after the main fermentation is over.
I have tried this and it made a passable beer. But I have a lager fridge now.
People have been trying pseudo lagers, including me. I played around trying to use different ale yeasts for maybe a year and a half before I had my lager fridge. None of them produce anything like a lager. The beera are night and day. I haven’t played with kviek yeast but people here say they have made clean beers with it up to 90 or 95 degrees or something.
The Germans wouldn’t still be lagering after hundreds of years if there weren’t something to it. Professional people with education and resources we don’t have would have found a better way if one existed.
G_robertus
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I agree with the notion that warm fermenting a lager can definitely still produce good beer, but it won't fix the effect of time. That effect counts for a lot of styles though, but it is very apparent with lagers. Finings do help somewhat, but even then it'll take some time (albeit less). I have no experience with new stuff like Novalager but I heard very poor experiences. Don't even get me started on pseudo lagers, those don't even come close. Lutra is not clean at all. Nottingham or US-05 are also nothing like a lager. I'd rather use lager yeast warm than ale yeast cold tbh.
VikeMan
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fluketamer
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i currently have a kolsch with 2565 fermenting away very slowly. i had an extra 4 liters of wort remaining after filling the FV so i threw it in an oxebar 4 liter PET bottle with a shortened dip tube and tossed in some s05 that i had lying around. no air lock i just burped the prv every day a little. then let it carb up by itself after about 10 days. after 2 weeks chilled and on tap its very clean and lager like. i fermented it at 59 degrees the whole time. so although i didnt have good results in the past with "pseudolagers" this lager grist (pilsner vienna 90/10) with s05 fermented at 59 degrees under some (i have no idea how much) pressure came out very very clean and lager like. just my experience recently.
Pro brewers tend to be conservative. And German brewers … I rather suspect that even if you could prove 100% that you made better or cheaper beer using adjuncts, exogenous enzymes, added flavors, and genetically modified yeast, most of them would refuse to do it.
Also, the market values traditional methods separately from the results they give. There’s PR to claiming that your beer recipe hasn’t changed in a century, and that you’re still following a 500+-year law on ingredients.
Another thing I've noticed, at least when it comes to brewers here in the states that are staunch adherents to European tradition, is they seem to have a stated goal of reproducing a specific flavor. Instead of saying "X-process or Y-ingredient makes for a better lager", they'll often say something more like "X-process or Y-ingredient makes for a more authentic lager". I think to many in our community, the difference between these two things becomes very difficult to untangle.
user 246304
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That's a really interesting point, well done. I can't speak for the world of American lagers too much as I drink maybe 80% ales, same for producing, though I do enjoy lagers and will on occasion brew one. I will say the thing I really appreciate about British ales is the supreme goal of balance, drinkability, everything in harmony. And for the most part, it's what I experience, too, in European lager making (for the most part, i.e., Jever Pils - way too bitter for a pils to me, though I don't shy from kettle bitterness in some British bitters). I find the general American approach in ales to be out of balance, so not my thing (not judging whether they're "better" or "worse," by any means).
How would you or others feel about American lager making, with respect to this notion of balance?
I think the homebrew community leans towards ales over lagers in general. So the interest is already tilted to begin with. My view is that Euro lagers are just better. So my approach to learning how to brew them is very Euro (mainly German & Czech) centric. So authentic is better for me. I do not know what percentage of American homebrewers have actually been to Germany or Europe, but unless one has tasted the beer fresh over there, 'one arm is tied behind the back' so to speak. To me, American lagers are just not as good.
Lager brewing seems kind of restrictive and dogmatic which it kind of is. But I see it as a worthwhile exercise to learn how to brew these things properly as it improves your process and attention to detail for all other beers. If someone wants to do a short and shoddy, then that is up to them. The problems arise when either camp tries to say "why" or "you should...".
What is a better lager? That is up to the person. Really good lager has a LOT of flavor which is very much missing in American examples where "clean" translates to no flavor!
100%.
I like to start from the finished product and work backward. Firstly, what is your goal, and are you achieving it in the finished beer? I think we too often try and diagnose problems from too far upstream. Which is where we find the folks telling someone their beer sucks (or is going to suck) if they do something different than the norm or break some sort of "rule".
As far as American lager overall, I could talk all day about it, but I really don't want to derail this thread. Haha.
Do you happen to have a link to this show or the Season and Episode number? I would be interested is watching it.
I have no idea. maybe google it and it might show up on you tube.
I find it amusing that one of the longest running home brewing jokes (and one that I'll wager we all have some personal experience with) goes something along the lines of, "Damnit! I'm down to my last three bottles and it's finally starting to get good!"
There's probably some wisdom in that old joke.
For my part, my COVID-19 project was to learn how to make good fizzy yellow swill. No problems there, anyone can do that. To make it more interesting, I set the macros' timeline as a goal. That, now, that's tricky. With the aide of a big, active pitch and the modern lager method (pitching at 48-50F and increasing the temp as the gravity falls) it's possible to finish up primary at 56F in less than seven days with an OG in the 1.045-.050 range. With the aide of a strain that doesn't require a D-rest, you can go straight into a cold crash. Discounting the day you lose crashing, that leaves you a solid 7 days at cold crash temps. With that finished, you can keg and fine in the keg around the 14-day mark w/ bright beer pouring two days later.
It can be done. Frankly, though, the beer is a lot better after a solid week in the keg. It doesn't look any different, it just tastes better.
Anyway, that's my experience with this. Having used the traditional method before adopting the modern lager method for my COVID project, I think there's some fat that can be reasonably cut out of the traditional process. Nevertheless, there is a bare minimum of time necessary. If that weren't the case, those last three bottles wouldn't be so good, right?
There's probably some wisdom in that old joke.
For my part, my COVID-19 project was to learn how to make good fizzy yellow swill. No problems there, anyone can do that. To make it more interesting, I set the macros' timeline as a goal. That, now, that's tricky. With the aide of a big, active pitch and the modern lager method (pitching at 48-50F and increasing the temp as the gravity falls) it's possible to finish up primary at 56F in less than seven days with an OG in the 1.045-.050 range. With the aide of a strain that doesn't require a D-rest, you can go straight into a cold crash. Discounting the day you lose crashing, that leaves you a solid 7 days at cold crash temps. With that finished, you can keg and fine in the keg around the 14-day mark w/ bright beer pouring two days later.
It can be done. Frankly, though, the beer is a lot better after a solid week in the keg. It doesn't look any different, it just tastes better.
Anyway, that's my experience with this. Having used the traditional method before adopting the modern lager method for my COVID project, I think there's some fat that can be reasonably cut out of the traditional process. Nevertheless, there is a bare minimum of time necessary. If that weren't the case, those last three bottles wouldn't be so good, right?
I don't have any evidence, but I suspect having a bit of coagulation during lagering is a feature. Particularly with poorly floculating yeasts (833?), that protein may be most of the structure in the sediment bed.
oldschool
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Which Bavarian breweries warm ferment?
I will withdraw the warm part.
@Bramling Cross "Damnit! I'm down to my last three bottles and it's finally starting to get good!" This is so true and why my latest change - brew 10 gallon batches and make two cornies out of the batch.
How else is it possible to condition a stout for 3-6 months? Or a lager/pilsner for 6 weeks. Brew bigger and savor the batch that benefitted from patience.
How else is it possible to condition a stout for 3-6 months? Or a lager/pilsner for 6 weeks. Brew bigger and savor the batch that benefitted from patience.
It is tough. I force myself to not touch my Belgian blonde beers for at least 4 weeks. They are just better if you wait. The answer is to have multiple taps!
I think Bud Light had a recent opportunity to investigate longer lager times.... On the store shelves.
I believe most big boys brewers shorten lager times to "as quickly as possible". Most are probably 3 weeks or less for most styles.
If there is a corner to cut, big Brewers typically go for it. I recall the Schlitz debacle in the 70s, where they switched from corn grits to corn syrup, following the lead of soda makers who had modified their production lines to swap between sugar and corn syrup, depending on which was cheaper. That move killer Schlitz in record time as the consumers hated it. I have never seen a big brand die so quickly based on a cost cutting decision.
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