Pseudo Vs Traditional Lager

[bwible]

There has been a recent trend toward warm fermented lagers using 34/70. But the warm fermentation is just that - the fermentation part. You still need to lager the beer.

The idea is you can skip the 50 degree fermentation and do it at ale temps if you don’t have a spare fridge or other temp control. But you still need to lager the beer at around 35 degrees or so for a few weeks after the main fermentation is over.

I have tried this and it made a passable beer. But I have a lager fridge now.

People have been trying pseudo lagers, including me. I played around trying to use different ale yeasts for maybe a year and a half before I had my lager fridge. None of them produce anything like a lager. The beera are night and day. I haven’t played with kviek yeast but people here say they have made clean beers with it up to 90 or 95 degrees or something.

The Germans wouldn’t still be lagering after hundreds of years if there weren’t something to it. Professional people with education and resources we don’t have would have found a better way if one existed.

 

[G_robertus]

I agree with the notion that warm fermenting a lager can definitely still produce good beer, but it won't fix the effect of time. That effect counts for a lot of styles though, but it is very apparent with lagers. Finings do help somewhat, but even then it'll take some time (albeit less). I have no experience with new stuff like Novalager but I heard very poor experiences. Don't even get me started on pseudo lagers, those don't even come close. Lutra is not clean at all. Nottingham or US-05 are also nothing like a lager. I'd rather use lager yeast warm than ale yeast cold tbh.

 

[VikeMan]

I'd rather use lager yeast warm than ale yeast cold tbh.

 

[fluketamer]

i currently have a kolsch with 2565 fermenting away very slowly. i had an extra 4 liters of wort remaining after filling the FV so i threw it in an oxebar 4 liter PET bottle with a shortened dip tube and tossed in some s05 that i had lying around. no air lock i just burped the prv every day a little. then let it carb up by itself after about 10 days. after 2 weeks chilled and on tap its very clean and lager like. i fermented it at 59 degrees the whole time. so although i didnt have good results in the past with "pseudolagers" this lager grist (pilsner vienna 90/10) with s05 fermented at 59 degrees under some (i have no idea how much) pressure came out very very clean and lager like. just my experience recently.

 

[AlexKay]

The Germans wouldn’t still be lagering after hundreds of years if there weren’t something to it. Professional people with education and resources we don’t have would have found a better way if one existed.

Pro brewers tend to be conservative. And German brewers … I rather suspect that even if you could prove 100% that you made better or cheaper beer using adjuncts, exogenous enzymes, added flavors, and genetically modified yeast, most of them would refuse to do it.

Also, the market values traditional methods separately from the results they give. There’s PR to claiming that your beer recipe hasn’t changed in a century, and that you’re still following a 500+-year law on ingredients.

 

[Pehlman17]

Pro brewers tend to be conservative. And German brewers … I rather suspect that even if you could prove 100% that you made better or cheaper beer using adjuncts, exogenous enzymes, added flavors, and genetically modified yeast, most of them would refuse to do it.

Also, the market values traditional methods separately from the results they give. There’s PR to claiming that your beer recipe hasn’t changed in a century, and that you’re still following a 500+-year law on ingredients.

Another thing I've noticed, at least when it comes to brewers here in the states that are staunch adherents to European tradition, is they seem to have a stated goal of reproducing a specific flavor. Instead of saying "X-process or Y-ingredient makes for a better lager", they'll often say something more like "X-process or Y-ingredient makes for a more authentic lager". I think to many in our community, the difference between these two things becomes very difficult to untangle.

 

[user 246304]

Another thing I've noticed, at least when it comes to brewers here in the states that are staunch adherents to European tradition, is they seem to have a stated goal of reproducing a specific flavor. Instead of saying "X-process or Y-ingredient makes for a better lager", they'll often say something more like "X-process or Y-ingredient makes for a more authentic lager". I think to many in our community, the difference between these two things becomes very difficult to untangle.

That's a really interesting point, well done. I can't speak for the world of American lagers too much as I drink maybe 80% ales, same for producing, though I do enjoy lagers and will on occasion brew one. I will say the thing I really appreciate about British ales is the supreme goal of balance, drinkability, everything in harmony. And for the most part, it's what I experience, too, in European lager making (for the most part, i.e., Jever Pils - way too bitter for a pils to me, though I don't shy from kettle bitterness in some British bitters). I find the general American approach in ales to be out of balance, so not my thing (not judging whether they're "better" or "worse," by any means).

How would you or others feel about American lager making, with respect to this notion of balance?

 

[Bassman2003]

Another thing I've noticed, at least when it comes to brewers here in the states that are staunch adherents to European tradition, is they seem to have a stated goal of reproducing a specific flavor. Instead of saying "X-process or Y-ingredient makes for a better lager", they'll often say something more like "X-process or Y-ingredient makes for a more authentic lager". I think to many in our community, the difference between these two things becomes very difficult to untangle.

I think the homebrew community leans towards ales over lagers in general. So the interest is already tilted to begin with. My view is that Euro lagers are just better. So my approach to learning how to brew them is very Euro (mainly German & Czech) centric. So authentic is better for me. I do not know what percentage of American homebrewers have actually been to Germany or Europe, but unless one has tasted the beer fresh over there, 'one arm is tied behind the back' so to speak. To me, American lagers are just not as good.

Lager brewing seems kind of restrictive and dogmatic which it kind of is. But I see it as a worthwhile exercise to learn how to brew these things properly as it improves your process and attention to detail for all other beers. If someone wants to do a short and shoddy, then that is up to them. The problems arise when either camp tries to say "why" or "you should...".

What is a better lager? That is up to the person. Really good lager has a LOT of flavor which is very much missing in American examples where "clean" translates to no flavor!

 

[Pehlman17]

The problems arise when either camp tries to say "why" or "you should...".

100%.

I like to start from the finished product and work backward. Firstly, what is your goal, and are you achieving it in the finished beer? I think we too often try and diagnose problems from too far upstream. Which is where we find the folks telling someone their beer sucks (or is going to suck) if they do something different than the norm or break some sort of "rule".

As far as American lager overall, I could talk all day about it, but I really don't want to derail this thread. Haha.

 

[SkyPilot]

As for the, is yeast doing anything during lagering question this is what I know. A program on Discovery channel called Factories did the AB brewery in St Louis where the cellar master showed the horizontal LAGERING tanks being stuffed with boiled beech wood lath (looking like a fish crib). He stated it gave the yeast 4-5 times the surface area then just the flat bottom so the yeast can complete there job.

Do you happen to have a link to this show or the Season and Episode number? I would be interested is watching it.

 

[hottpeper13]

I have no idea. maybe google it and it might show up on you tube.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I find it amusing that one of the longest running home brewing jokes (and one that I'll wager we all have some personal experience with) goes something along the lines of, "Damnit! I'm down to my last three bottles and it's finally starting to get good!"

There's probably some wisdom in that old joke.

For my part, my COVID-19 project was to learn how to make good fizzy yellow swill. No problems there, anyone can do that. To make it more interesting, I set the macros' timeline as a goal. That, now, that's tricky. With the aide of a big, active pitch and the modern lager method (pitching at 48-50F and increasing the temp as the gravity falls) it's possible to finish up primary at 56F in less than seven days with an OG in the 1.045-.050 range. With the aide of a strain that doesn't require a D-rest, you can go straight into a cold crash. Discounting the day you lose crashing, that leaves you a solid 7 days at cold crash temps. With that finished, you can keg and fine in the keg around the 14-day mark w/ bright beer pouring two days later.

It can be done. Frankly, though, the beer is a lot better after a solid week in the keg. It doesn't look any different, it just tastes better.

Anyway, that's my experience with this. Having used the traditional method before adopting the modern lager method for my COVID project, I think there's some fat that can be reasonably cut out of the traditional process. Nevertheless, there is a bare minimum of time necessary. If that weren't the case, those last three bottles wouldn't be so good, right?

 

[mashdar]

I agree with this sentiment, but unless we're willing to wait a really long time before moving beer to its lagering vessel, there will be more that just yeast left in suspension, even with the tightest process. Some proteins and polyphenols will still be there, because cold crashing for a few days or a week doesn't drop them all. (Though at some point, a long cold crash becomes lagering...thus my qualifier of "a really long time.") During the lagering period, they will gradually settle out. But I agree 100% that "trub" should be excluded.

I don't have any evidence, but I suspect having a bit of coagulation during lagering is a feature. Particularly with poorly floculating yeasts (833?), that protein may be most of the structure in the sediment bed.

 

[oldschool]

It seems like you are really interested in warm fermented lagers or pressure-fermented lagers rather pseudo lagers (which on HBT generally means lager-style beers fermented with kveik or other ale yeasts). Lots of breweries, including famous Bavarian breweries, brew warm-, pressure-fermented lagers. But they do it to save money, not because it makes better beer. I'm a homebrewer. I don't have to worry about that. I want to brew the best beer (by my standards), not the fastest beer. And so I lager my lagers.



In the newly published book Modern Lager Beer: Techniques, Processes, and Recipes by Jack Hendler and Joe Connolly, they lay out the "four main purposes of lagering" (paraphrasing the book Practical Handbook for the Specialty Brewer: Fermentation, Cellaring, and Packaging Operations Volume 2, edited by Karl Ockert):

1. Flavor maturation; eliminating the undesirable flavors and creating desirable ones
2. Clarification through the sedimentation of yeast and other insoluble materials
3. Chill stabilization by promoting the creation of protein tannin complexes that can be removed by sedimentation or filtration
4. Development of carbonation

On the next page: "One thing is certain when it comes to flavor maturation: yeast is the key component. Such modifications only happen in the presence of yeast."

You are focusing on numbers 2 and 3. The long lagering crowd believes in the importance and validity of number 1 in addition to 2 and 3.

I am also a fan of natural carbonation, although that doesn't always require long lagering times, depending on how you do it. There are many ways to brew lagers. Brew what makes you happy!

Which Bavarian breweries warm ferment?

 

[Witherby]

Which Bavarian breweries warm ferment?

I will withdraw the warm part.

 

[Willy]

@Bramling Cross "Damnit! I'm down to my last three bottles and it's finally starting to get good!" This is so true and why my latest change - brew 10 gallon batches and make two cornies out of the batch.

How else is it possible to condition a stout for 3-6 months? Or a lager/pilsner for 6 weeks. Brew bigger and savor the batch that benefitted from patience.

 

[Bassman2003]

It is tough. I force myself to not touch my Belgian blonde beers for at least 4 weeks. They are just better if you wait. The answer is to have multiple taps!

 

[Willy]

I have my opinions about traditional lagering and all the other short and shoddy methods to simulate a lager but I'll just ask this question to provoke some thought. If there was a way to achieve a beer that can't be distinguished from a traditionally long cold-aged lager, wouldn't every CFO of macro breweries be all over it? Shorter production times are profit.

I think Bud Light had a recent opportunity to investigate longer lager times.... On the store shelves.

I believe most big boys brewers shorten lager times to "as quickly as possible". Most are probably 3 weeks or less for most styles.
If there is a corner to cut, big Brewers typically go for it. I recall the Schlitz debacle in the 70s, where they switched from corn grits to corn syrup, following the lead of soda makers who had modified their production lines to swap between sugar and corn syrup, depending on which was cheaper. That move killer Schlitz in record time as the consumers hated it. I have never seen a big brand die so quickly based on a cost cutting decision.