Pseudo-Patersbier Saison? Flash of brilliance or terrible idea?

[luckybeagle]

I had planned to brew a version of my house Tripel recipe soon, which is 76% Pilsner malt, 10% pale wheat, 11.5% table sugar, and 2.5% Victory, when I came across a recipe for a pale session-strength saison utilizing a very similar grain bill and hops.

My tripel comes in at an OG of 1.085 with 35 IBUs.

Instead of brewing a 5 gallon batch of Tripel, I'm thinking of increasing the grain bill to brew 7 gallons' worth. I'd then put 5 gallons in one carboy and pitch Wyeast 3522 Ardennes yeast as usual, and the other 2 gallons of tripel wort in another carboy along with 2 gallons of boiled and chilled water. This carboy would receive a pitch of Weast 3711 French Saison, and would ferment at room temperature.

The saison's specs would come in at 50% across the board due to the 50:50 dilution: OG: 1.043, IBU: 17, BU:GU would remain unchanged since hops and OG drop proportionately). With the 3711's attenuation, It should be about 5.25% ABV.

I have Saaz, Mittelfruh, Styrian Goldings, and Magnum on-hand, and haven't decided which combo to use to hit 35 IBUs between the bittering and 5-15 minute additions.

I can't see any reason why this wouldn't work well, and am pretty excited at this idea. Anyone want to pop my bubble?

 

[Sammy86]

Brilliant idea! After increasing my brew capacity I split my 10 gallon batches into 2 fermenters and pitch two different yeasts...excellent idea!

 

[luckybeagle]

Brilliant idea! After increasing my brew capacity I split my 10 gallon batches into 2 fermenters and pitch two different yeasts...excellent idea!

Nice! I did that a few times when I was experimenting with Kveik yeast:

• Kveik Kolsch vs Traditional Kolsch
• Belgian Golden Strong vs Kveik Golden Strong
• Irish Red vs Kveik Red
• Belgian Blond vs Kveik Blond

It was a great way to find out which classic beers can be "hybridized" with good results, and which beers have no business being messed with I'm sure you've had some interesting side-by-sides?

 

[Sammy86]

So far only one unfortunately...my three assistant brewers (4 and twin 10 month olds) keep me pretty busy.

I did my American Wheat with Imperial Kveiking and Imperial Independence.

It took the Kveiking around a month to really get good...the independence was fantastic right off the bat.

Next experiment is Kolsch recipe with Kolsch yeast and Lager yeast...see which comes out on top.

 

[IslandLizard]

35 IBUs between the bittering and 5-15 minute additions.

Keep in mind, when you dilute that 1:1 for your Patersbier, your IBUs are halved too.

 

[Transamguy77]

Splitting batches is always a good idea! 2 beers for 1 brew.

I’ve also brewed a simple pale beer and pulled off some of the boil and added Some roast and chocolate and then added that back to half the batch and pitched a stout yeast. So I ended up with a pale ale and a stout.

@Sammy86 that is also on my list to do.

 

[luckybeagle]

Keep in mind, when you dilute that 1:1 for your Patersbier, your IBUs are halved too.

Yes indeedie. The BU:GU ratio is about 0.40 which may be a tad high for a saison, but I think it'll be ok? 17 IBU for a 1.043 beer seems pretty good for something crisp and not overly malty or hoppy

So far only one unfortunately...my three assistant brewers (4 and twin 10 month olds) keep me pretty busy.

I did my American Wheat with Imperial Kveiking and Imperial Independence.

It took the Kveiking around a month to really get good...the independence was fantastic right off the bat.

Next experiment is Kolsch recipe with Kolsch yeast and Lager yeast...see which comes out on top.

Sound like good experiments! I'm very curious to hear how your Kolsch turns out. I did a WY1007 batch at 60F and it turned out super clean. Not lager clean, but maybe pretty close? It'd be interesting to hear if the effort of lagering produces a significantly cleaner beer for you.

And I know what you mean about kiddos. We've got a preemie (well, 9 weeks early and her official due date just came--she spent 38 days in the NICU). My other is 4 and has the energy of a dozen puppies. Only two mouths to feed but still slowed my brewing frenzy down! That's also part of the split batch/patersbier appeal--two different beers, one brew session.

 

[Sammy86]

Yes indeedie. The BU:GU ratio is about 0.40 which may be a tad high for a saison, but I think it'll be ok? 17 IBU for a 1.043 beer seems pretty good for something crisp and not overly malty or hoppy


Sound like good experiments! I'm very curious to hear how your Kolsch turns out. I did a WY1007 batch at 60F and it turned out super clean. Not lager clean, but maybe pretty close? It'd be interesting to hear if the effort of lagering produces a significantly cleaner beer for you.

And I know what you mean about kiddos. We've got a preemie (well, 9 weeks early and her official due date just came--she spent 38 days in the NICU). My other is 4 and has the energy of a dozen puppies. Only two mouths to feed but still slowed my brewing frenzy down! That's also part of the split batch/patersbier appeal--two different beers, one brew session.

All three of ours were NICU babies...oldest (5 days) because he has a congenital heart defect and twins were 6 weeks early (12 days in NICU) we were very lucky.

the oldest loves brewing...he likes eating the grain before mash in...and flipping switches on the Brewzilla. I'll keep ya updated on the Kolsch experiment when it happens!

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes indeedie. The BU:GU ratio is about 0.40 which may be a tad high for a saison, but I think it'll be ok? 17 IBU for a 1.043 beer seems pretty good for something crisp and not overly malty or hoppy

Yes, I meant it as that, an unintended but positive side effect here.
Just one thing about 3711, she's a beast, but her flavor profile is a bit lackluster. Maybe co-pitch some 3522 or Kveik?

 

[luckybeagle]

Yes, I meant it as that, an unintended but positive side effect here.
Just one thing about 3711, she's a beast, but her flavor profile is a bit lackluster. Maybe co-pitch some 3522 or Kveik?

Oooh, I like that idea (with 3522 especially). I might have to try this on the next go around. I plan to harvest the slurry and culture it up into a few different mason jars and experiment with it across my go-to Belgian Trappist-style beers, so I probably should wait to blend yeasts until I've got some pure slurry. But I love the idea of combining/blending yeasts--I haven't done that yet.

I've heard of people using 3711 for Belgian Dark Strong/Quadrupel, which has me pretty fired up, since its supposedly similar to 3787 but finishes even lower and drier. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[luckybeagle]

All three of ours were NICU babies...oldest (5 days) because he has a congenital heart defect and twins were 6 weeks early (12 days in NICU) we were very lucky.

the oldest loves brewing...he likes eating the grain before mash in...and flipping switches on the Brewzilla. I'll keep ya updated on the Kolsch experiment when it happens!

Dang, three kids in the NICU--I'm sure that was a rollercoaster. Sounds like everyone is healthy though? Such a unique and (at times) scary experience. With COVID, our firstborn wasn't able to meet her sister for 6 weeks while she was in the hospital. Such a strange year.

Having brewing as an outlet in 2020 has been a lifesaver (but maybe is responsible for a few extra pounds, haha)

 

[IslandLizard]

I've heard of people using 3711 for Belgian Dark Strong/Quadrupel, which has me pretty fired up, since its supposedly similar to 3787 but finishes even lower and drier. What are your thoughts on that?

I've never brewed a Belgian Dark Strong/Quad, it's been on my to brew list forever, with all good intentions. Same with Barleywines. We even have a Strong Ale competition in both my clubs most years. This discussion will help to get them moving up that list, fast.

Not sure what character 3711 would lend to a BDS, it's surely worth exploring. I guess alcohol ultimately prevents her from dropping it too low or we'd end up with 17% 1.006 BDSs.

I've used 3787 in various Belgians, years ago, but at the time preferred 3522 for flavor/character. Now I never pushed 3787 into higher temp ranges or super high gravities, which may not have allowed her to shine. IOW, I haven't really explored 3787 to her capabilities. But I must have drunk many of her beers over the years. I love Quads!

WY1762 (WLP540), Rochefort, I've never really explored deeply enough either.

 

[luckybeagle]

I've never brewed a Belgian Dark Strong/Quad, it's been on my to brew list forever, with all good intentions. Same with Barleywines. We even have a Strong Ale competition in both my clubs most years. This discussion will help to get them moving up that list, fast.

Not sure what character 3711 would lend to a BDS, it's surely worth exploring. I guess alcohol ultimately prevents her from dropping it too low or we'd end up with 17% 1.006 BDSs.

I've used 3787 in various Belgians, years ago, but at the time preferred 3522 for flavor/character. Now I never pushed 3787 into higher temp ranges or super high gravities, which may not have allowed her to shine. IOW, I haven't really explored 3787 to her capabilities. But I must have drunk many of her beers over the years. I love Quads!

WY1762 (WLP540), Rochefort, I've never really explored deeply enough either.

I hear ya on 3787 vs 3522, and on Quads/Barleywines. Those are two of my favorite styles, yet I've spent the least amount of time/energy thinkingabout or developing them. You'd think a homebrewer would pour their heart into perfecting their all time favorites...

My fourth beer ever brewed was Josh Weikert's Golden Falcon Tripel, which calls for 3522. I scored a 42 and took 2nd place in the Trappist category at our local brewfest with that beer, without temperature control at the time. My ego was sufficiently stroked which sold me on that yeast for so long, but I was discouraged from using it in a Quad in favor of 3787--after all, the greats such as Westvleteren, Westmalle, St Bernardus etc are fermented with 3787 equivalent and only N'Ice Chouffe and Pannepot Grand Reserva are 3522 that I know of. Still haven't made a quad with it yet. I really should, especially since it makes a fine dubbel, and a quad is more-or-less a scalar version of it. Has anyone in your club brewed a BDS with 3522 or anything else that's not 3787, that you know of?

I went to 3787 earlier this year and brewed a Trappist single with it for sake of getting a good yeast cake to brew a quad with. Single turned out great, so I pitched the cake into a Westmalle Dubbel clone. The darn beer got infected, so I tossed the cake and scrapped my Quad plans at the time, and I never went back to it. The only quads I've brewed to date are with Chimay 1214 (just bottled my most recent attempt--the first one tasted like iron) and Loki Kveik (Voss)--the latter being an absolute failure for probably obvious reasons!