Pros and cons of removing chlorine?

[MachineShopBrewing]

I have tried various searches on the subject but all i keep finding is how to remove chlorine from your water. I am curious as to how important chlorine removal is and what is does to - the mash, the sparge, and the finished product? Will it affect efficiency, pH, flavor, . . .? I am curious to hear from people that have done both and have, or have not noticed a difference is various styles.

 

[z987k]

Unremoved chloramine can lead to chlorophenols after fermentation. I describe it as an intensely spicy phenolic.

 

[Yooper]

Right. In the quantities used in a water supply, it wouldn't harm the yeast or the the mash. It just causes a bad flavor in the resulting beer. Like band-aids, plastic, or medicinal flavor.

 

[TipsyDragon]

I agree with the above. boiling will reduce clorine to insignificant levels. now cloromate (bad spelling) is a more stable form of clorine and is not removed by boiling. to reduce it to insignificant levels you need to add 1 campden tablet to the brew after toping off.

 

[z987k]

or filter with charcoal.

 

[TipsyDragon]

yea that too

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

thanks for the info guys. I am guessing that it will be worth my time to remove the chlorine from my water. I have a large PUR pitcher that I run some through and I have a 7 gallon jerry can that I can store it in.

 

[RunBikeBrew]

Campden tablets are very effective at removing both chlorine and chloramine. Before I started using them, I'd get a rubbery off taste in my finished beers.

 

[gxm]

I've not done anything to treat chloramine (what our local water supply uses), and I've not experienced any of the off flavors. I wonder if there is a baseline level above which the off flavors become noticeable?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I've not done anything to treat chloramine (what our local water supply uses), and I've not experienced any of the off flavors. I wonder if there is a baseline level above which the off flavors become noticeable?

Yes. For chlorophenols it's generally 1-5 parts per billion.

 

[mmb]

I've not done anything to treat chloramine (what our local water supply uses), and I've not experienced any of the off flavors. I wonder if there is a baseline level above which the off flavors become noticeable?

Also might depend on how clean of a fermentation profile the beer you normally make has.

Imperial Stout would mask more phenols than, say, American Standard Lager or a Kolsch.

 

[Edcculus]

There is no con in removing chlorine.

 

[Shooter]

Related to this, at what point is it "too" late to add the crushed Campden tablet to the water? I've been collecting all my water crushing a half a tablet and stirring. I then use part of that water to steep. However, this weekend I did a stovetop partial mash with two pots and it would have been a lot easier to do the mash, do the sparge in the second pot, add it all to the boil kettle and THEN throw in the Campden as it's coming up to temperature. Is there any reason that would be a bad idea? Does the chlorine hurt the mash or effect the sparge negatively? Is there a temperature above which the chemical reaction of the Campden with the chlorine will not take place?

 

[remilard]

Related to this, at what point is it "too" late to add the crushed Campden tablet to the water? I've been collecting all my water crushing a half a tablet and stirring. I then use part of that water to steep. However, this weekend I did a stovetop partial mash with two pots and it would have been a lot easier to do the mash, do the sparge in the second pot, add it all to the boil kettle and THEN throw in the Campden as it's coming up to temperature. Is there any reason that would be a bad idea? Does the chlorine hurt the mash or effect the sparge negatively? Is there a temperature above which the chemical reaction of the Campden with the chlorine will not take place?

The problem with this is that by the time you add the campden, the chlorine may have already reacted with phenols.

 

[Shooter]

The problem with this is that by the time you add the campden, the chlorine may have already reacted with phenols.

So, the phenol reaction could happen in the mash? I was hoping it was only a reaction that occured during fermentation.

Sigh, it would have been much easier to add it later! So much to learn as I move on to mashing.

Thanks!

 

[samc]

I've not done anything to treat chloramine (what our local water supply uses), and I've not experienced any of the off flavors. I wonder if there is a baseline level above which the off flavors become noticeable?

In Portland here are times of the year when the chlorine is pretty noticeable to me and other times you can barely tell it's there.

Here is a link to some good info on getting rid of it http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/a...ing-chloramine-a-historical-hopping-mr-wizard

 

[z987k]

To delve into this topic some more, you should know if you have chlorine or chloramine in your water. Chloramine is by far better. I believe I've read it reduces chlorophenol production by 90 some percent compared to free chlorine. Chloramine is a bit harder to get rid of though. Sunlight, and leaving the water stand for 48 hours are good ways. Sodium metabisulfate(campden) works, activated carbon works. But the method I like best is ascorbic acid. The dosage rate is .1 grams per 5 gallons.

 

[Scimmia]

Chloramine is a bit harder to get rid of though. Sunlight, and leaving the water stand for 48 hours are good ways.

Sunlight and letting the water sit will have no effect on chloramines. That will effectively get rid of chlorine, but not chloramine. Activated carbon will work, but it's extremely slow. Chloramine may be a bit safer than chlorine if the water isn't going to be treated, but it's significantly harder to remove.

 

[z987k]

Sunlight and letting the water sit will have no effect on chloramines. That will effectively get rid of chlorine, but not chloramine. Activated carbon will work, but it's extremely slow. Chloramine may be a bit safer than chlorine if the water isn't going to be treated, but it's significantly harder to remove.

Not really. Ascorbic acid and Na/K-Meta are very available.
For the Vitamin C I've seen rated of 333mg per 5gal to 100mg per 5 gal. I'd just go with the higher as it would have no effect on taste or pH anyways.

 

[gxm]

In Portland here are times of the year when the chlorine is pretty noticeable to me and other times you can barely tell it's there.

This got me to thinking that I always drink the tap water at home, but I never drink tap at work. I've never noticed a chlorine odor in my home water (SE Portland), but work water smells and tastes bad. (downtown portland).

And this is an interesting quote from the Portland water bureau: "Treatment operators, along with lab personnel, carefully monitor raw water quality so as to keep mono-chloramine at a high level. Mono is good and keeps our water tasting good. Di-chloramine and tri-chloramine are bad. Think swimming pool odor for those. This is a careful balance, however, and is not an easy task."

http://www.portlandonline.com/water/index.cfm?a=236717&c=39678

 

[Scotty_g]

So, the phenol reaction could happen in the mash? I was hoping it was only a reaction that occured during fermentation.

Sigh, it would have been much easier to add it later! So much to learn as I move on to mashing.

Thanks!

I am not an expert on the subject (we use bottled water for brewing to avoid the chlorine issue; the city switched off well water to lake water a few years ago and that requires considerably more disinfectant), but I think the chlorine issue would primarily be during fermentation. I don't think you can get chlorophenols until the yeast make some regular phenols first. There would be some phenolic-like compounds in the grist (like lignin) but I don't know if they dissolve. The paper industry used to use chlorine to bleach lignin from pulp, but that was at much higher concentrations of chlorine.

I suspect the boil would remove chlorine just fine from the water; the potential source of chlorine in the fermentation would be any top-off water. I'd worry most about that.

 

[Shooter]

I suspect the boil would remove chlorine just fine from the water; the potential source of chlorine in the fermentation would be any top-off water. I'd worry most about that.

Yes, it's my understanding that you add the Campden primarily to take care of the chloramine which allows it to be driven off with the chlorine, or as chlorine, in the boil. I was hoping that I could add the Campden while the final boil volume was coming up to temperature. Right now I measure out a bunch of water in advance, treat it and I then have to redistribute it between my different vessels. It would just make it a little easier if the treatment didn't have to happen until it all got into the boil kettle. You make a good point though about top off water.

 

[beergears]

Related to the subject, isn't Campden potassium metabisulfite, and what is the quantity equivalent of a 'tablet"?

 

[remilard]

I am not an expert on the subject (we use bottled water for brewing to avoid the chlorine issue; the city switched off well water to lake water a few years ago and that requires considerably more disinfectant), but I think the chlorine issue would primarily be during fermentation. I don't think you can get chlorophenols until the yeast make some regular phenols first. There would be some phenolic-like compounds in the grist (like lignin) but I don't know if they dissolve. The paper industry used to use chlorine to bleach lignin from pulp, but that was at much higher concentrations of chlorine.

I suspect the boil would remove chlorine just fine from the water; the potential source of chlorine in the fermentation would be any top-off water. I'd worry most about that.

Malt, particularly the husks, contains phenols as do hops and most other plants for that matter.

 

[Scotty_g]

Malt, particularly the husks, contains phenols as do hops and most other plants for that matter.

Quite true. However, I was mostly thinking (perhaps incorrectly) about the phenol character that certain yeast provide while other yeast do not. If you can get the band-aid taste when using chlorinated water and a cleaner yeast, then it would be the malt husks (etc.) providing the phenols for the undesirable flavor. In that case, you would need to keep all chlorinated water out of the brewing process (mashing, boiling, top-off).

 

[z987k]

Quite true. However, I was mostly thinking (perhaps incorrectly) about the phenol character that certain yeast provide while other yeast do not. If you can get the band-aid taste when using chlorinated water and a cleaner yeast, then it would be the malt husks (etc.) providing the phenols for the undesirable flavor. In that case, you would need to keep all chlorinated water out of the brewing process (mashing, boiling, top-off).

Nope, chlorophenols can defiantly happen in the mash. Especially with chlorine, they react with the husks as said. Fermentation is also a problem.

 

[soulie]

Ok, so I know some of this was touched on, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on some of this.

I use an activated carbon filter to help remove chlorine and chloramine. My chemistry is a bit lacking but does the activated carbon remove other ions like Chloride, Sodium, or anything else?

Also a comment earlier stated that the filtration had to be slow. Would a standard in-line GE filtration unit with activated carbon filter not remove the advertised 99.5% (or whatever) of chlorine? Also, is this rate of removal of chloramine similar to that of chlorine?

Thanks for breaking this down for me.

 

[buffalobrewer]

is there a waiting period between using a campden tablet and pitching yeast?

 

[twst1up]

slightly
so, if i'm using a whole house filter what kind of filter should i be looking for? Are carbon block filters the same thing as activated charcoal?

 

[schweaty]

is there a waiting period between using a campden tablet and pitching yeast?

I treat all the water I'm brewing and sanitizing with first thing. I believe I read that the reaction doesn't take very long but I would treat your water at the beginning of the brew day.

FWIW my batches of beer have been noticeably better since I started using campden tabs. I highly recommend them or the charcoal filtration as earlier stated. If you do nothing else to your water when brewing you'll want to do this.

Apparently campden tabs can also be used for the neutralization and decontamination after exposure to tear gas. So if you plan on rioting make sure to bring some campden!