proposed water treatment

[demetman]

Hello guys. I'm planning my second all grain batch this week. I have been looking at ez water calculator for water augmentation. I have a few questions using this software. Here's my recipe

Belgium Ale w Brett
9 gal filtered brewing water
9# German pilsner malt
1.25# CaraMunich11
.75# dextrose
10AAU Hallertau at 60
1.5oz Styrian Goldings(dry hop)
2L starter WLP510
1 vial WLP650
1 Whirlfloc
3.75 dextrose or corn sugar

Here is a synopsis of my proposed additions.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 8
Mg: 13
Na: 58
Cl: 113
SO4: 6
CaCO3: 22

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 3.28 / 5
RO or distilled %: 50% / 50%

Total Grain (lb): 10.6

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 5 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 3.2

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 65 / 40
Mg: 7 / 7
Na: 29 / 29
Cl: 57 / 57
SO4: 228 / 92
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.25 / 0.61

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -192
RA: -242
Estimated pH: 5.46
(room temp)

The first question I have is treating sparge water or not? I am under the impression that after mashing, the mash PH is set and treating sparge water is not a necessity. Ez water calculator dictates that I should also treat sparge water, to be in recommended range. When I input 5g Gypsum, my mash water profile for calcium is at 65ppm but my mash and sparge water profile is only at 40.

I'm also a bit confused on mash PH with the sauer malt addition. The Effective Alkalinity(CaCO3 ppm) moves to -144 and Residual Alkalinity is at -195. It is only an assumption that these numbers are ok based on the estimated mash PH at 5.50. Which brings up yet another question. Since the calculated mash PH is room temp, does this effect desired PH range at mash temps? If I omit the 3.2oz acidulated malt, mash PH goes up to 5.69, which is not in optimum range. Or is it? With mashing temps it should drop .3, which would be in optimum range?

I know I'm in a bit over my head with calculators and brewing water augmentation, as a newer brewer, but i'm determined to learn as much as possible. As always, I appreciate any and all suggestions and info.

 

[ajdelange]

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 8
Mg: 13
Na: 58
Cl: 113
SO4: 6
CaCO3: 22

I am taking the 22 to mean alkalinity is 22 ppm as CaCO3 which more or less balances with the other stuff and You have probably 0.01 mg/L CaCO3 in your water.

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 3.28 / 5
RO or distilled %: 50% / 50%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 5 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 3.2

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 65 / 40
Mg: 7 / 7
Na: 29 / 29
Cl: 57 / 57
SO4: 228 / 92
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.25 / 0.61

Those seem fine. That's enough to get a bit of calcium into the mix. The 1:1 dilution gets the chloride down to where you could use some calcium chloride if you wanted to as a source of additional calcium but I'll leave the question as to where you want chloride and sulfate relative to one another up to you. That is much, much more sulfate than I would like but if that's what you enjoy then do it. That amount of sauermalz should get you a mash pH of around 5.43 depending on the alkalinity of the base malt.

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -192
RA: -242
Estimated pH: 5.46
(room temp)

The fact that my estimate of mash pH (with Wyermanns pilsner malt) is nearly equal to that of the calculator you used does not mean that the mash pH will really be between 5.43 and 5.46. With Crisp's Maris Otter the estimate would be 5.51 and with Wyermanns other pilsner it is 5.57.

The first question I have is treating sparge water or not? I am under the impression that after mashing, the mash PH is set and treating sparge water is not a necessity. Ez water calculator dictates that I should also treat sparge water, to be in recommended range. When I input 5g Gypsum, my mash water profile for calcium is at 65ppm but my mash and sparge water profile is only at 40.

The way this works is that the water needs protons to get to mash pH from the water's pH. You didn't say what the water's pH is but we can tell from the alkalinity that you are going to need about 0.9*11/50 = 0.2 mEq of protons for each liter of the water equal to 12.4*0.2 = 2.5 mEq total (effective alkalinity is 11 because of the dilution). That's not a whole lot and corresponds to about 5% of the acidity contributed by the sauermalz. Thus the sparge water does not have to be treated in this case. In cases where the alkalinity of the sparge water is higher then it does need to be treated because if you do not it alone will absorb enough protons from the mash to raise the pH of the wort.

I'm also a bit confused on mash PH with the sauer malt addition. The Effective Alkalinity(CaCO3 ppm) moves to -144 and Residual Alkalinity is at -195.

Don't pay any attention to RA numbers. RA was never intended to be used as applied to mash.

It is only an assumption that these numbers are ok based on the estimated mash PH at 5.50.

That is what is important.

Which brings up yet another question. Since the calculated mash PH is room temp, does this effect desired PH range at mash temps?

The mash pH will be lower at mash temperature. More sophisticated mash prediction programs take the temperature 'glide' of each malt into consideration. The less sophisticated ones apply a fixed offset. It is assumed that if you have it right at room temperature it will be right at mash temperature too.

If I omit the 3.2oz acidulated malt, mash PH goes up to 5.69, which is not in optimum range. Or is it? With mashing temps it should drop .3, which would be in optimum range?

No. 5.69 at room temperature (5.39 at mash temp and the drop isn't usually as much as 0.3) is too high (though you could probably get away with it). Your base malts need 29 mEq protons and your water 2 more to reach pH 5.5. It is the function of the sauemalz to provide those protons.

I know I'm in a bit over my head with calculators and brewing water augmentation, as a newer brewer, but i'm determined to learn as much as possible. As always, I appreciate any and all suggestions and info.

That's why I've broken things down into where the protons flow. I'm trying to get people to realize that understanding of the processes is based on that (without too much luck).

 

[demetman]

I am taking the 22 to mean alkalinity is 22 ppm as CaCO3 which more or less balances with the other stuff and You have probably 0.01 mg/L CaCO3 in your water.

Yes 22 is total Alkalinity, CaCO3 from my water report.



T

hose seem fine. That's enough to get a bit of calcium into the mix. The 1:1 dilution gets the chloride down to where you could use some calcium chloride if you wanted to as a source of additional calcium but I'll leave the question as to where you want chloride and sulfate relative to one another up to you. That is much, much more sulfate than I would like but if that's what you enjoy then do it. That amount of sauermalz should get you a mash pH of around 5.43 depending on the alkalinity of the base malt.

My issue is the fact that I'm not sure where I want my chloride to sulfate levels. I'm just trying to stay within Palmer's recommended ranges. May I ask what you recommend for Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions for this recipe?

I appreciate your detailed and informative responses.

 

[ajdelange]

May I ask what you recommend for Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions for this recipe?

You are just setting out on an adventure which may well occupy you for the rest of your life so I'll tell you what I think I'd do if I were doing that knowing what I know now. I'd probably go buy a volume of RO water, add about a quarter of a gram of calcium chloride per gallon and brew the beer with that. When the beer was ready I sample it as is and with very small additions of gypsum and calcium chloride until I found the additions that were most pleasing to me. I would then scale those up to full brew length and brew the beer again and repeat the taste tests a couple more times. At that point you should be brewing a beer you like and you can start tweaking the recipe as in 'lets brew this with just a little more sulfate and see how it comes out' rather than using the spiked taste tests which aren't don't give precise indications of flavor impacts.

The goal here really is to calibrate yourself i.e. to find out what you like but, of course, it is a good idea to get your 'customers' in on this too (esp. if the main customer is an SO).

Once more or less satisfied you can then look at what to do to treat your water to get it to the profile that you determined with the RO water. You will probably stick with RO, however.

If you don't want to do that you might get some commercial beer and dose it with gypsum and taste to see if you are a sulfate lover. If adding sulfate really makes the beer taste bad to you then you probably are not and I'd recommend brewing the beer with your water but without the sulfate addition (and then test with spikes as recommended above). If you find that adding extra sulfate improves then you are a sulfate lover and should brew with it in.

 

[demetman]

You are just setting out on an adventure which may well occupy you for the rest of your life

You are right with that statement. I've been an advocate of craft beer for many years, which has turned into a full fledged hobby. I have been a member of The Rare Beer Club for 2yrs now. I work as a professional Chef, so the idea of crafting my own beer was inevitable and something I wish I perused years ago. Better late than never, I suppose.

I'd probably go buy a volume of RO water, add about a quarter of a gram of calcium chloride per gallon and brew the beer with that.

I know that when diluting my well water, distilled water can be used instead of RO water.(as per your ok in a previous thread). Do you suggest I purchase a volume of RO water for any specific reason? Are there ions and or minerals in RO water that make it better suited than using distilled water, for the purpose of experimenting with brewing water additions?

When the beer was ready I sample it as is and with very small additions of gypsum and calcium chloride until I found the additions that were most pleasing to me

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Understood. A liter treated at a time should suffice? It sounds difficult to scale up such minute quantities of gypsum and calcium carbonate, but I'll give it a try. I'll report back in time. Most likely be back with more questions, haha.

The goal here really is to calibrate yourself i.e. to find out what you like but, of course, it is a good idea to get your 'customers' in on this too (esp. if the main customer is an SO).

Once more or less satisfied you can then look at what to do to treat your water to get it to the profile that you determined with the RO water. You will probably stick with RO, however.

As I previously mentioned..I'm having a new well drilled next week. I'm not expecting any major changes, but it should be different in profile. My existing well casing is iron, which has contributed to high iron levels over the years. My new well will be shallower, so the water should be of higher quality.(so i'm told) w'll see when I get the water retested.

If you don't want to do that you might get some commercial beer and dose it with gypsum and taste to see if you are a sulfate lover.

Do you have any examples of any commercial breweries that you would consider heavy in sulfate use? Does it simply just produce a salty flavor? Just trying to understand what type of flavor higher level of sulfates impart.

Again thank you for nudging me into experimentation and learning the hard way, ajdelange. I know it will pay off some day.
Demetrios

 

[ajdelange]

I know that when diluting my well water, distilled water can be used instead of RO water.(as per your ok in a previous thread). Do you suggest I purchase a volume of RO water for any specific reason? Are there ions and or minerals in RO water that make it better suited than using distilled water, for the purpose of experimenting with brewing water additions?

The goal is to work with low ion content water. RO is usually sufficiently low and the extra processing and expense required to bring it to the DI level of purity isn't really justified. But if you have a ready and inexpensive source of DI water by all means use it.

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Understood. A liter treated at a time should suffice? It sounds difficult to scale up such minute quantities of gypsum and calcium carbonate, but I'll give it a try.

Even less than a liter is fine. The approach to metering out minute quantities of gypsum and calcium chloride (you wouldn't do this with chalk which isn't usually used in brewing) is to make solutions and then add them, a drop or two at a time, to the beer you are testing.

Do you have any examples of any commercial breweries that you would consider heavy in sulfate use?

Given the craft brew consuming public's current tastes I think you'd be harder pressed to find a brewery that wasn't loading up on sulfate than one that was.

Does it simply just produce a salty flavor? Just trying to understand what type of flavor higher level of sulfates impart.

You can probably get a pretty good idea from whatever beer you have in your fridge at the moment. It is more of a drying, astringent puckery taste and it also has an effect on the way people perceive hops bitterness rending that rough, harsh etc. This depends on variety and whether it is pleasant or not depends on the individual.