Problems with WLP001 and Wyeast version

[EvilBrewer]

Anyone out there have problems using these California Ale yeast strains? It's driving me crazy. I get good results with dry yeast but these two essentially ruin my beer--and after the 6 hours it takes me to brew, suffice it to say this will not do!

I keep fermentation temps at about 66 degrees using a refrigeration device controlled by a digital temperature probe. I mash at the right temperature range. I use the right ingredients. I make a good starter. But somethign is awry and I can barely stand to drink the final product.

I LOVE Sierra Nevada..and allegedly, this is the yeast they use. So...what gives??? How do they do it and what am I doing wrong? All six of my attempts at this clone have been completely ruined and all eyes look to the yeast...

Anyone have any ideas?????

 

[Yooper]

I have no clue! Wyeast 1056 and the dry S05 are reported the same "chico" strain, so they especially should be the same during fermentation and after.

What size starter are you making, and how fresh is the yeast when you brew the beer?

 

[EvilBrewer]

I have no clue! Wyeast 1056 and the dry S05 are reported the same "chico" strain, so they especially should be the same during fermentation and after.

What size starter are you making, and how fresh is the yeast when you brew the beer?

Starter: (2 cups water) + (1/2 cup DME) + (hydrated dry yeast or liquid yeast from vial/slap pack).

I do this the night before brewing...by the time I pitch, it has been about 18 hours and there is lots of activity inside the starter. I've also done a starter 24 hours+ before pitching. I usually see activity in my airlock within 6-12 hours of pitching the starter into fermenter.

As far as I know, the yeast is fresh.

 

[samc]

Why are you using liquid? If you get great results with S-05 like most people it seems odd to struggle with the liquid version.

You should not be making a starter with hydrated dry yeast as it is counterproductive.

 

[Scimmia]

What exactly is wrong with the beer when you use the liquid?

 

[EvilBrewer]

Why are you using liquid? If you get great results with S-05 like most people it seems odd to struggle with the liquid version.

You should not be making a starter with hydrated dry yeast as it is counterproductive.

How is making a starter with hydrated yeast counterproductive?? The directions say to hydrate the yeast in sterile water before pitching so that's what I do...I *hydrate* it before pitching into my starter vessel. Anyway, I've had great results with this so I don't see any problem with it.

I've not tried S-05; the dry yeasts with which I've had success are Muntons English Ale Yeast and Safale-04. Both with starters.

 

[EvilBrewer]

What exactly is wrong with the beer when you use the liquid?

It's difficult to put my finger on it. My pallete gets more refined the more I brew but I'm still not able to completely isolate the issue with the taste.

I'm pretty sure it is overfermenting though. My FG was lower than expected..and there is NO maltiness in the taste of the beer. It seriously tastes like unsweetened grapefruit juice. Very dry. No malt on the nose whatsoever. I use temperature control for fermentation which is what really blows my mind that it would come out dry like this.

 

[Scimmia]

I've not tried S-05; the dry yeasts with which I've had success are Muntons English Ale Yeast and Safale-04. Both with starters.

And both of those yeasts are significanly less attenuating than chico.

 

[waldoar15]

I'm not all that fond of WLP 051 either. For some reason or another, I think I have to build a much bigger starter than what I would normally do. Not happy with it.

 

[EvilBrewer]

And both of those yeasts are significanly less attenuating than chico.

I see your point; you're saying the chico yeast SHOULD produce a dryer beer. But I still feel like it's coming out drier than it should. There is seriously NO maltiness to the final product. It's no good, I'm telling you. I'm really at a loss.

 

[Scimmia]

There's probably something else in your process that's causing it to dry out that much, and the less attenuating yeast is just making up for it. You say you mash in the right "range", what temp are we talking about and how well calibrated is your thermometer?

 

[hbomb]

Huh, I use 001 quit a bit, usually a hair warmer than that but never have a problem. In fact, sometimes I've even pitched without a starter, no problem.

Too dry...what do your mash temps look like? Tell us more about your process and recipes. Could be another factor.

 

[EvilBrewer]

I'm not all that fond of WLP 051 either. For some reason or another, I think I have to build a much bigger starter than what I would normally do. Not happy with it.

Yeah, I've used that one too...for a Bell's Two Hearted Ale clone. I was pretty dissappointed with the results. Couldn't even finish drinking the batch...poured it out. Too dry...what the heck am I doing wrong? I followed the recipe. And I love the Bell's Two-Hearted Ale. What are they doing right that I'm doing wrong???

 

[EvilBrewer]

Huh, I use 001 quit a bit, usually a hair warmer than that but never have a problem. In fact, sometimes I've even pitched without a starter, no problem.

Too dry...what do your mash temps look like? Tell us more about your process and recipes. Could be another factor.

Mash temps were a couple of degrees low...probably around 152 rather than target of 154. I understand that can cause dryness but I didn't think it would ruin the batch.

Fermented at 66-67 degrees.

Process:
Yeast starter, fly sparge, starting gravity was on target, 75% efficiency

Recipe/results:
(I use BeerSmith)
10 lbs 4.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 94.21 %
10.1 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.79 %
0.18 oz Magnum [14.40 %] (60 min) Hops 8.2 IBU
0.70 oz Pearle [8.20 %] (60 min) Hops 18.2 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (15 min) Hops 11.8 IBU
0.75 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (0 min) Hops -
0.75 oz Cascade [7.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days)
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [Starter 35 ml] Yeast-Ale

Est Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.007 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.57 %
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.26 %
Bitterness: 38.3 IBU
Calories: 241 cal/pint
Est Color: 7.5 SRM

 

[Scimmia]

1.007 is going to be very dry, it's also 87% apparent attenuation, which is off the charts. So I'll ask again, how well calibrated is your thermometer, because it's sounding more and more like you're mashing far too low.

 

[rocketman768]

Shoot for 158F in the mash next time and see what happens.

 

[EvilBrewer]

1.007 is going to be very dry, it's also 87% apparent attenuation, which is off the charts. So I'll ask again, how well calibrated is your thermometer, because it's sounding more and more like you're mashing far too low.

That's a good point. My thermometer is digital...I don't have a product number for you or anything but I bought it from Northern Brewer for this specific purpose. It was like 15 bucks. I can't calibrate it...basically just on/off, C/F, reset.

I use BeerSmith to determine the strike water temp...but yeah, again that could be thrown off by an inaccurate thermometer. I use the same one for the whole process. I have an analog thermometer on my brewpot but I think acutally calibrated that one using my digitial therm!

I appreciate your calculation...and the affirmation that it's off the charts. Let's me know I'm not crazy! How can I be sure that the thermometer is properly calibrated?

 

[Scimmia]

Most people test them in ice water and boiling water. That will give you a good idea how far it's off, since most digital thermometers are.

You said you use BeerSmith to calculate strike temp, but do you check the actual temp of the mash? I've found the strike temps from BeerSmith to be 4-5 degrees too low in my setup.

 

[EvilBrewer]

Most people test them in ice water and boiling water. That will give you a good idea how far it's off, since most digital thermometers are.

You said you use BeerSmith to calculate strike temp, but do you check the actual temp of the mash? I've found the strike temps from BeerSmith to be 4-5 degrees too low in my setup.

Yeah, I check the temps in the actual mash. I stir it up really well and then check the temperature in multiple places. It's never complete uniform no matter how much I stir, but usually within 1 degree.

I will check the calibration using boiling/ice water.

Just curious..what kind of thermometer do you use?

 

[Scimmia]

I use an old school alcohol lab thermometer, you know, read where the red line is. Doesn't read as quickly, but they tend to be more accurate without spending a bunch of money on an accurate digital.

 

[denimglen]

I'm pretty sure it is overfermenting though. My FG was lower than expected..and there is NO maltiness in the taste of the beer.

Are you confusing maltiness and sweetness?

To be technical 'maltiness' is the flavour (well technically aroma) of malt/bread/grain/caramel etc, whereas sweetness is the actual flavour of sweet on your tongue, like sugar. That is, a beer can be very malty but still finish dry and not sweet at all, or a beer can be very sweet and full bodied but not have much maltiness.

Even a beer finishing at a low OG should not ruin it, it may be too dry in the finish but that's about it - the OG is not related to the amount of malt flavour in the beer. I've brewed a couple APAs that have finished in the 1.009 range and have been great.

If I was you I'd read through the BJCP judging sheets and see if any of the off-flavours listed are in your beer and maybe we can give you some more advice.

 

[beach]

With the info you provided my guess is the mash temp is too low. I have 6 thermos- 2 digital, 2 analog dials, a floater and 1 lab thermo. I use the lab thermo to calibrate all the others.

I've used WLP001 in my 2 Hearted clone and it came out just fine. But, IMHO, if you want a real 2 Hearted clone you need to use the Bell's yeast.

Beach

 

[EvilBrewer]

Are you confusing maltiness and sweetness?

To be technical 'maltiness' is the flavour (well technically aroma) of malt/bread/grain/caramel etc, whereas sweetness is the actual flavour of sweet on your tongue, like sugar. That is, a beer can be very malty but still finish dry and not sweet at all, or a beer can be very sweet and full bodied but not have much maltiness.

Even a beer finishing at a low OG should not ruin it, it may be too dry in the finish but that's about it - the OG is not related to the amount of malt flavour in the beer. I've brewed a couple APAs that have finished in the 1.009 range and have been great.

If I was you I'd read through the BJCP judging sheets and see if any of the off-flavours listed are in your beer and maybe we can give you some more advice.

I'm talking about the maltiness that you get on the nose when you crack open a bottle of pale ale. In mine, this aroma is completely absent. And as far as taste...well, it's like I said, it tastes like unsweetened grapefruit juice. Way too dry.

Sierra Nevada PA is a dry beer, yes...but there is definitely a caramel maltiness you get on the nose. My clone does not have this, and looking at my ingredients, you'd think it would, right?

I do appreciate your input!

 

[EvilBrewer]

With the info you provided my guess is the mash temp is too low. I have 6 thermos- 2 digital, 2 analog dials, a floater and 1 lab thermo. I use the lab thermo to calibrate all the others.

I've used WLP001 in my 2 Hearted clone and it came out just fine. But, IMHO, if you want a real 2 Hearted clone you need to use the Bell's yeast.

Beach

That is what I'm thinking at this point as well...it's the only thing that makes sense at present.

Lemme tell you how I get my mash started and maybe you (others feel free to chime in, please!) can tell me if you see any tragic flaws...

I use BeerSmith to calculate the strike water temp. I raise the volume of water to that temperature, verifying it with my digital thermometer (which as of now, could be of questionable accuracy). I then dump the strike water from my boil pot into my 10 gallon rubbermaid. I add my grain and stir it up until I see no more dough balls. I check the temperature in multiple places using the same digital thermometer. Usually, the different areas of the mash tun are within about 1 degree of each other. And the average of said temperatures is close to the target mash temp. I put the top on my cooler and let it sit for an hour. After the hour is up, I take some temperature readings. I've usually only lost about 1 degree over the course of the hour. I do an iodine test and then I begin the vourlaf (sp?). When it clears up, I start my fly sparge (no mashout) using 180-185 degree water (yes, this is higher than the goal of 170 degrees but I'm trying to account for any heat loss). This past time, my OG was right where I wanted it (1.055).

Any thoughts?

 

[WorryWort]

I'm pretty sure it is overfermenting though. My FG was lower than expected..and there is NO maltiness in the taste of the beer. It seriously tastes like unsweetened grapefruit juice. Very dry. No malt on the nose whatsoever. I use temperature control for fermentation which is what really blows my mind that it would come out dry like this.

I find that 1056 dries out my beer pretty well, almost too much for many beers - even basic american styles. I think it is a pretty powerful yeast if pitched at 'normal' recommended pitch rates. So because of the low ester production on this I have no ill effects pitching less than recommended. One smack pack works quite well up to 1.060 for me.


I would recommend Wyeast 1968 (WL 002, I think?), at low temps like 66-68. It's a lower attenuating yeast, great for IPAs and Pales Ales. It's pretty clean at those temps. It is used by many large brewers on the west coast for classic american styles. And it's high flocculating so it produces clear beer quickly.

 

[RichBenn]

I just read through this thread. Everyone seems to be pointing at mashing temps, which is one possibility.

But in the beginning, you mentioned "unsweetened grapefruit". Short of getting a beer judge to taste for faults, here are some more thoughts. Most you've probably already considered and/or eliminated, but:

1. You have some kind of infection in the starter. (Boiling starter, cool then pitch with perfect sanitation throughout.)

2. If you are using a plastic primary, perhaps there is some wild yeast hiding that you didn't get on previous batches. In that case, it's just coicidence.

I did a 001 batch a while back and just pitched per the instructions without doing a starter(I know, dumb). Took a long time to start, and tasted bad for some time. But it finally mellowed. It could have been some other problem, however....

I know better now, but US-05 is dumbproof. No reason to use liquid yeast when there is a good dry in that strain. Never had a bad batch with it!

3. Perhaps you like a more balanced or more malt/hops ratio. I notice you finished real low F.G. compared to the recipe. That'll throw the balance way off. In a light colored beer I just did, with super fresh hops, it also attenuated way more than beersmith said, and it tastes pretty dry. So, like others said, mashing at a higher temp, reducing hops a touch, and/or using a lower attenuating yeast would be the answer.

Rich

 

[Beezer94]

Perhaps I missed it reading through this, but how long was it in the primary/secondary?
Did you bottle or keg it?
How long was it in the bottle/keg?
How much priming sugar?

 

[Saccharomyces]

Repeat to yourself:

$15 digital thermometers are no good for brewing...
$15 digital thermometers are no good for brewing...
$15 digital thermometers are no good for brewing...

These devices are generally only accurate within 3-4*F (I have seen some of them 6*F off!). My suggestion is to throw it away and buy a Thermoworks thermometer or similar quality digital. That will likely resolve your problem. Or, switch to a less attenuative yeast such as an English strain. Wyeast 1028 London Ale is my personal favorite, it makes a great hoppy IPA or Imperial IPA.

 

[denimglen]

I'm talking about the maltiness that you get on the nose when you crack open a bottle of pale ale. In mine, this aroma is completely absent. And as far as taste...well, it's like I said, it tastes like unsweetened grapefruit juice. Way too dry.

Sierra Nevada PA is a dry beer, yes...but there is definitely a caramel maltiness you get on the nose. My clone does not have this, and looking at my ingredients, you'd think it would, right?

I do appreciate your input!

I don't think mash temp is your problem then, while a sweeter beer will slightly enhance maltiness a little I don't think it would be enough to 'ruin' a batch.

I was getting a lot of and beers thin in flavour and lacking in the malt area. In the end I found that my water was the main culprit, being very low in all ions. A boost up to about 50 - 100 ppm of both sulphate and chloride did an amazing job.

What does your water report look like?

And of course - your idea of a 'ruined' batch and my idea of a ruined batch could be totally different things , in situations like this you really need to get some other people to taste your beer - without telling them what you think the problem is. Even if you don't have any friends that are into beer try talking to the brewers at some local micros/brewpubs, they're usually way more friendly than what people expect!

 

[EvilBrewer]

Repeat to yourself:

$15 digital thermometers are no good for brewing...
$15 digital thermometers are no good for brewing...
$15 digital thermometers are no good for brewing...

These devices are generally only accurate within 3-4*F (I have seen some of them 6*F off!).

I put my 15 dollar thermometer to the test this evening...in a cup of ice water (mostly ice), it reads 35.3 degrees! Son of a--

So, this would have caused the mash temps to be too low and therefore produced the overly dry beer. I've had success with some dry yeast but as someone poitned out earlier, that's probably just becuase they were less attenuating strains (ie, they were still drier than they should have been...but still good). I've used this same thermometer for all the all-grain batches that I've done (about 10 total) so...it is probably the culprit. Or at least that is my theory for now!

I'll get a better thermometer and I might even add a couple of degrees to my mash next time just in case...

Thanks for your advice.

 

[EvilBrewer]

I don't think mash temp is your problem then, while a sweeter beer will slightly enhance maltiness a little I don't think it would be enough to 'ruin' a batch.

I was getting a lot of and beers thin in flavour and lacking in the malt area. In the end I found that my water was the main culprit, being very low in all ions. A boost up to about 50 - 100 ppm of both sulphate and chloride did an amazing job.

What does your water report look like?

And of course - your idea of a 'ruined' batch and my idea of a ruined batch could be totally different things , in situations like this you really need to get some other people to taste your beer - without telling them what you think the problem is. Even if you don't have any friends that are into beer try talking to the brewers at some local micros/brewpubs, they're usually way more friendly than what people expect!

I've used spring water for all of my batches. Usually Deer Park or store brand. I agree though; taste is so subjective that it really needs to be done in person...explaining it just doesn't work all the time.

I'm telling you though, man...this beer is drinkable, but barely!

 

[denimglen]

Also, test your thermometer in boiling water as well to see what it reads there. If it's out by roughly the same amount then you know you can safely adjust your temp by adding/subtracting the difference.

 

[Shaggyt]

FWIW, I used WLP001 almost exclusively for over a year (frozen yeast bank's are great) and have had no ill effects as far as ruined batches. I have noticed that the yeast attenuates like a champ...the first time I had a 1.007 batch I thought it was infected or going to be horrible. Turns out it great mouth feel and good balance...I brew mostly AG IPAs using re-pitched, washed yeast cakes.

The best balanced beers I made with this yeast have been mashed between 155-158...by accident.

The maltiness you're craving will probably be better achieved by the other yeasts suggested in this thread. Though versatile, the 001 accentuates the hops more than malts, IMO...but I like that.

Good luck on the next batch

 

[EvilBrewer]

FWIW, I used WLP001 almost exclusively for over a year (frozen yeast bank's are great) and have had no ill effects as far as ruined batches. I have noticed that the yeast attenuates like a champ...the first time I had a 1.007 batch I thought it was infected or going to be horrible. Turns out it great mouth feel and good balance...I brew mostly AG IPAs using re-pitched, washed yeast cakes.

The best balanced beers I made with this yeast have been mashed between 155-158...by accident.

The maltiness you're craving will probably be better achieved by the other yeasts suggested in this thread. Though versatile, the 001 accentuates the hops more than malts, IMO...but I like that.

Good luck on the next batch

I'm with you; I understand that less attenuating strains will leave more maltiness. I'm gonna give 001 another shot and just keep my mash temps up...but probably not right away. Gonna brew some English style pale ales in the meantime (ie, with less attenuating strains). These 001 experiences have been frustrating as hell so I need to give it a month or two (for the sake of my sanity) and then come back to it. I appreciate your insight as someone who has used this strain so frequently.

 

[EvilBrewer]

Just wanted to follow up and say that my THERMOMETER was indeed the culprit. Turns out it was reading a few degrees too high and I was therefore mashing the grain pretty far below my target temps. This was resulting in a very dry beer--especially with the 001 strain.

I got a new thermometer and calibrated it and then used it for my last batch...(a Dale's Pale Ale Clone). It turned out absolutely fantastic!! Problem solved.

I appreciate the insights provided by everyone on this thread...Cheers!