Preventing Diacetyl -or- "Hold The Butter Please"

[Revvy]

Another thing to consider is that diacetyl isn't just a yeast fermentation byproduct, it can also be generated by Pediococcus that might be lingering in unflushed beer lines for those bottling from the keg.

Pediococcus throws diacetyl in spades.

I have noticed it big time in several bars where the only "decent" beer on tap was Killians. I have been to 4 different bars, two of them chains, where this was really noticeable. I agree about it being in bad tap lines, and I've always wondered if it comes out more in beers with more caramel/crytal malts.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

I have noticed it big time in several bars where the only "decent" beer on tap was Killians. I have been to 4 different bars, two of them chains, where this was really noticeable. I agree about it being in bad tap lines, and I've always wondered if it comes out more in beers with more caramel/crytal malts.

I think there was a thread on this...

I have seen diacetyl in Dos Equis Amber on tap. Same place did not have the diacetyl earlier, I guess they needed to clean their lines.

 

[wstaufe]

Hmmmm- started out as a good info thread, but it seems that most posters are missing the point- how to AVOID diacetyl in the first place. It's true that some yeast strains exhibit more production than others, but the main culprit seems to be slightly warm fermentation temps. I wanted to scream when I saw the the posts about S-05...I've turned out countless batches of american ales pitched with it that have exhibited no diacetyl character at all.

HOWEVER...I recently produced two diacetyl bombs with Cooper's dry yeast- more my fault than the yeast though. I use a plate chiller with 10-gallon batches, but didn't notice that my tap water (city) is significantly warmer during the summer (I think the lines are fairly shallow in my area in SC). Instead of ~65F, my wort was finishing at ~90F

 

[homebrewer_99]

I've been brewing since Aug 1994 and have never had a diacetyl problem...couldn't even fanthom a beer tasting like butter...until recently.

I had 2 brews in a row exhibit the "real butter" flavor.

One was a "speed brew" ale that started on Sunday, racked on Wednesday, and kegged on Saturday. I gassed it up and set it in the keezer for 1 week. Sample tasted like butter sure enough. I know how that one happened with that one, but can't explain the second one.

They're both good now...I took them out of the keezer, depressurized the kegs and added more yeast and an airlock and let them sit in the warm garage for another week or so until it corrected itself.

Both were ales using Notty.

No more "speed brews" for me.

 

[DeathBrewer]

Not with notty. I don't think I've ever gotten diacetyl with it (maybe) but the yeast definitely leaves character if you don't wait or chill.

 

[homebrewer_99]

The "speed brew" actually called for 2 packets of Notty...so that's what I used.

I know it's was because I took it off the yeast too soon (3 days). But that's what experimenting is all about.

The strange thing is, if I had not done a "speed brew" it would have been done by now anyway...

 

[BeerAg]

I definately have a butter brew on my hands. Not overpowering, but I hate the mouthfeel. I think I am going to try the Nottingham trick to see if it will finish off the diacetyl. I am supposed to bring beer to a hunting trip in October, so I have plenty of time to let the beasties do their work.

What temp do you guys recommend?

 

[homebrewer_99]

Room temperature will do it for you. Just let it sit.

 

[Clayton]

I cant not think of one time I ever had a problem with diacetyl and i make 4 or 5 lagers a year, but there are two things i always do, 1. I am a shake-swerller about every other day i shake the carboy to get every thing moveing around and break up the cake, for the 7 to 10 days and then i do it once or twice on the second week i dont know why i just always have ,i will shake it one last time 2 days or so before the cold crash to the keg. and 2. I always leave my beer on the yeast atleast 2 weeks but most offton 3 to 4 , I am not in a hurry and have pleanty of space in my coolers to just let then do there thing.

so imho the trick beond all the other stuff stated in this thread is to not rush primary and give the carboy a good shake mixing up all the trub-yeast cake just before starting your diacetyl rest.

 

[BeerAg]

Just an update.

After 2 weeks of Notty at about 70 degrees, one of the 2 kegs has cleared up almost completely, still a little green but should turn out fine. The other still has a hint of butter to it.

I am going to crash cool the good keg, and leave the other a bit longer. I am naming the beer Dead Orville (like Reddenbocker) Pale.

 

[Sarrsipius]

So you skip the secondary completely? (which would give me a free 5g carboy). Any problems with getting sediment into the bottling process??

I have never used a secondary. I primary for 3-4 weeks and then bottle with little sediment in the final product. I've recently bought a keggerator conversion and am now going to go 3-4 weeks in the primary and then try 4-6 weeks secondary in the keg and then carbonate and serve from the same keg. If I don't notice a difference I'll just go 3-4 weeks primary and then rack to a keg and carbonate.

Never had a bad beer with up to a month in the primary.

 

[pkgmsu2000]

yes, this thread is a bit old, but i am reviving it to say thanks for ALL of the helpful suggestions to cope with diacetyl.

it might be helpful to remind everyone about the role a yeast starter plays in this... i got this from a good friend that has been helping out a beginner brewer.

the first thing yeast does is reproduce. somehow, through the magic of life, it knows how many of them there are relative to how much food is available. Their darwinian response is to crowd out competition so if there is a ton of food (i.e. 5 gallons of wort) they will spend the first 8 to 12 hours just reproducing to the right ratio of Yeast to Sugar
Only then to they start to eat. The trouble for you the homebrewer is that the flavors they make reporducing aren't very good, aka butter amongst others... so if you "underpitch" they will need to really reproduce a ton in order to get to the point they are comfortable with but spending a lot of energy reproducing, they consequently produce a lot of diacetyl after they are done eating, but they will re-absorb a lot of the diacetyl. but the problem is, if your population is low, there won't be enough of them in the fermenter to re-absorb all the diacetyl they made. If that's the case, no amount of "clean up" time will make it go away. The easy solution is to just pitch more. The more that go in, the fewer generations they will need to build up to the proper population i.e. they make less diacytl in the first place, PLUS, you've got more of them to clean up so you win on both sides so you know you have a good batch
just do a small a starter, and make sure you don't contaminate it.
Good yeast + starter = guarenteed clean batch of beer

 

[HoppedIPA]

You were not in Kansas city by chance were you.. I see you are currently in STL..?

I honestly think that "hints of slight diacetyl" is the go to flaw that wanna be judges lean on to show they know something.

Bullsh!t.

I had two competitions 4 weeks apart...submitted the same beer...three judges in one and two in the other...one judge out of the five used the "slight diacetyl" argument to ding me. The beer went on to win 2nd in APA's in the one comp.

Ain't no way this beer had diacetyl. It was an ALE. Pitched on a huge cake. Fermented like crazy...sat at 68 degrees for four weeks...oh...and did I mention it took a silver amongst 24 other APA's?

I'm coming to the realization that a church basement full of slightly intoxicated EAC wanna-be's will always result in someone trying to show their stuff and make some comment just to hear themselves talk.

In other words...if you don't detect diacetyl and you're doing everything right...I say ferk em.

 

[Kealia]

I'm about to do my first lager and like everything else I've read a lot about this.
(Been brewing for about a year, just doing ales)

I'm doing a schwarzbier and pitching WLP810.
My plan was to ferment at about 55 for about a week, check gravity, and if I'm near the 75% done range then bring the temp up to about 65 for 3-4 days for the diacetyl rest. if it's not at that point, continue at 55 until it is.

Does that sound about right?

Likwise, after the diacetyl rest should I drop the temp back down to 55 (or colder) to lager for a while?

Final question - when it comes time to bottle, what temp do I use for the calculations? Fermenting temp (55) or room temp?

I appreciate any and all help.
I feel like I'm starting to brew all over again.

 

[spillindillon]

this is hilarious because in my signature beer I put half a stick of butter in the wort. i believe beer is liquid bread so why not have toast. it compliments the hop bitterness perfectly but that's just me

 

[Kealia]

this is hilarious because in my signature beer I put half a stick of butter in the wort. i believe beer is liquid bread so why not have toast. it compliments the hop bitterness perfectly but that's just me

I don't know if I should laugh or gag.

 

[spillindillon]

don't judge me

 

[birvine]

This was an awesome thread - HBT is great for all of these pieces of excellent information.

B

 

[kjjohns5]

Great thread.

I just had my first experience with diacetyl in a Middle Eastern inspired American Brown Ale. The beer itself is fantastic- really amazing, but when the beer warmed up there appears to be some definite diacetyl characteristics. I believe that I know what my issue was with this beer as I've never had this problem before.

Every beer I do will primary for at least 7 days, the most I've primaried was 2 weeks. I ALWAYS 2ndary my beer, and this case was no different. I pitched a massive and healthy yeast cake and the primary fermentation was vigorous and technically finished within 48 hours. I still let the beer sit for 8 days in the primary. I wracked into the 2ndary and it sat on a lb each of dates and raisons. Fermentation kicked up again, not crazy, but visibly active. After 1 week in the 2ndary I decided to bottle because I didn't want the beer to dry out any more (it was already 6.8%).

I realized, now that I'm drinking it, that my issue was likely not in primary, but rather in 2ndary fermentation. It seems that I bottled my beer too soon. When I added the sugar from the dates and the raisons, yeast became active, and fermentation had not stopped after 7 days in the 2ndary. Because I bottled with live, active yeast (granted, not as much as if it were in primary, which is likely why they diacetyl is not noticeable at cold temperatures) that had not had time to clean up after themselves.

I'm going to rebrew this beer soon but this time I'm actually going to wrack a 3rd time, off of the fruit, and let the beer settle for about 3 extra days. If my theory is correct, this will handle any diacetyl issues that I have.

I'll come back and update based on the rebrew of this beer, but in the meantime I'd like to ask if anyone has possibly had diacetyl issues from the 2ndary? I would suggest to anyone if you use fruit or anything that will kick up fermentation again, to plan for additional rest for you beer before you package.

 

[paraordnance]

I never had a problem with diacetyl, may be I just don't have enough experience yet. I'm fermenting my first lager right now using Pilsner Urquell 2001 it is at 1.020 after week and a half and it has no diacetyl or buttery taste to it. My process is always same for my ales, Kolsch or lagers. I make starter, re-hydrate if dry yeast or pitch lots of slurry. I always pitch cold regardless of what says on a pack of yeast and ferment at lower end for that yeast. I let it ferment 90% and then always bring it out of fermentation chamber to let it sit for couple days at room temperature (70-71F). Don't even know what diacetyl taste like

 

[h22lude]

Subscribe...great thread.

I could be completely wrong but my last two batches taste or smell like they have/had diacetyl. My ipa smelt strong of butterscotch at first but then after a month in the bottle it tasted better. My Belgian wit now tastes a little buttery but it has only been in the bottle for 3 weeks.

 

[gio]

Just tried an IIPA (9% ABV) I brewed. I fermented it in the primary for only 4 days because fermentation was complete by then (according to my hydrometer). I was following the advice of "rack to secondary when fermentation is almost finished" and I racked it and left it in the secondary for 4 1/2 weeks before bottling.

It's been in the bottle for just a week now (not quite completely carbonated) and it tastes good but definitely has a buttery IHOP aroma that is more intense when the beer gets warm. I'm hoping it goes away with time but I've seen to hear very mixed experiences regarding diacetyl here.

 

[TomOliver]

Welp. Got some butter beer here.

Thanks to this thread, hopefully it won't happen again.

Tom

 

[jman300sd]

Apart from not fermenting long enough and perhaps warm enough what else causes diacetyl? Infection? I have an american wheat I had in the primary for 5 weeks and after bottling I have noticeable levels of diacetyl. It varies from bottle to bottle in terms of intensity. I don't recall tasting any diacetyl before I bottled and I could have sworn I cleaned the hell out of the bottles. I did use washed yeast from a previous batch and I fermented at about 68. I don't know where else to look and evaluate. I am trying to improve my process. This is my first batch out of 16 that has bad diacetyl.

 

[pkgmsu2000]

Apart from not fermenting long enough and perhaps warm enough what else causes diacetyl? Infection? I have an american wheat I had in the primary for 5 weeks and after bottling I have noticeable levels of diacetyl. It varies from bottle to bottle in terms of intensity. I don't recall tasting any diacetyl before I bottled and I could have sworn I cleaned the hell out of the bottles. I did use washed yeast from a previous batch and I fermented at about 68. I don't know where else to look and evaluate. I am trying to improve my process. This is my first batch out of 16 that has bad diacetyl.

perhaps the batch was underpitched and you didnt have enough yeast?
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

or perhaps it was just a bad batch of yeast?

that is a bit strange for you to have this problem if you've already brewed 15 other batches. usually i hear that it happens on the first few batches because they didnt make a starter or didnt properly sanitize, or they tried a lager with way too little yeast.

 

[IMNOTL8]

So... I got dinged at a competition (my first) for off flavors and the possibility of poor sanitation, bacterial ring forming? on the inside of my bottle, etc. I had a few more bottles of this beer that I had bottled from the keg at the same time and noticed no "bacterial ring" forming. Didn't notice the off flavors. I will have to admit that I am not sure if I have tasted anything that has that buttery flavor... This was an Imperial Pilsner that was 10.5% ABV. I entered it in a Bohemian Plisner category. I had some friends who were beer judges tell me that it was one of the best homebrews they'd ever had! I was taking his word for it when I entered the competition when I received 15/50 points! So.... I guess my question is could the high ABV of the beer be a contributing factor to the diacetyl/off flavors? I acutally did a diacetyl rest and this beer was in the priamry for quite some time.

 

[Amarillo4BRKFST]

I love this thread - as diacetyl in Central TX is a reality similar to taxes and death. However, it touches on an issue that constantly plagues me -

How does an IPA condition in a bottle for an entire month without ending up utterly devoid of hop flavor?

 

[sddanc]

I love this thread - as diacetyl in Central TX is a reality similar to taxes and death. However, it touches on an issue that constantly plagues me -

How does an IPA condition in a bottle for an entire month without ending up utterly devoid of hop flavor?

100% brett fermentation

 

[sammyreyes]

So what are my options? I make a Irish Red from extract. After one week in the primary, I transferred it to the carboy. After a week in the carboy transferred it to my keg. I didn't take multiple SG readings in the secondary. Just once when I transferred, and once before I put it in the keg. Once in the keg, it sat for 2-3 days before I tasted it. Its been in the keg now for about 1 1/2 weeks. Still has that burnt butterscotch taste.

Is it a loss? Or is there a way to salvage this batch?