Pressure cooker: A decoction hack?

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before and after 30min 15psi for reference

If you taste-test them I'd be curious to know the differences.

 

[ba-brewer]

If you taste-test them I'd be curious to know the differences.

Very seldom do I get jars that don't seal so I have not done any side by side tests.

I usually taste the starter beer as I decant before using the yeast but I am looking for obvious off flavors like sour and phenolic and not the maltiness of the beer.

I am getting low on starter and need to make more soon so I may give it a try next time.

 

[Beer234]

I am seriously thinking about pressure cooking the whole mash.... just to see what happens. I have a pressure cooker that holds 23 litres. I mean, for keptinis, the whole mash gets baked, so could not be that bad. I am just not so shure about the scorching at the bottom of the pot. The pot is not high grade.

Just thinking, could you then add hops to the pressure cooker decoction and skip the boil after the mash, dry hop for flavour/aroma. Reading up on keptinis, a separate hop tea is prepared? Maybe DMS would become a concern. Guessing the bain-marie method would be needed to avoid scorching.

 

[hottpeper13]

I use the separate decoctions for stepping up from 143* to 158*and then to 172*. After this discussion I might try a single infusion of 152* for 60 min then decocting (just boil) for 60 min and see if it enhances flavor. It might just open a can of worms with haze.

 

[Bassman2003]

All bets are off when we are just going for flavor. Do you intend to boil the entire mash?

 

[AlcheMania]

So i brewed the pilsner as planned.
Ended up using some carapils @ 6% and also some 34/70 i had on hand instead of a liquid pils yeast. My effeciency ended up being way higher than i anticipated so i had to settle for a shorter boil (50 min total isntead of planned 75) and still endeed up at a 1.059 OG. 5 points higher than i planned. Oops.
All in all the trial was a success, as the press boiled liquid had a noteably different color, aroma, and flavor. And thats with only about 20 minutes at full pressure boil. Next time ill do 30-35. The straight mash juice was light n sweet with little aroma. The press boiled shot had some caramel and oatmeally/cereally flavors. Mild but immediately perceptible. How much this small 1 gallon portion will affect the end product (im working with only a 5 quart pressure cooker) remains to be seen but for me this was a huge success. Perceptible differences. No off flavors. Oh and clean up was a breeze. Just soaked in hot water and soap for 20 and the crud came right off with a scrub.

16 hrs post pitch got ferm activity.
Spunding valve set to 5 psi.
Temp 60 F
Will update when i tap in bout 5-6 weeks.

Time to smoke ribs, drink beer and watch football!

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for the update! So no side by side test then? Not really possible to get the difference then, is it?

 

[AlcheMania]

Thanks for the update! So no side by side test then? Not really possible to get the difference then, is it?

Other than a side by side of the pre and post press boil portions?, nope. I suppose i could counter pressure fill a bottle and keep it fridged till the next batch where ill bump the press boil time and see if i note a diff. But ill be a couple months before i get back to brewing this one. My plan was to just keep bumping times and amounts boiled and see if i like the end product. So long as it fits into my usual brew day its a win for me.
Brulosophy i aint.

 

[mashdar]

My guess too.
before and after 30min 15psi for reference
View attachment 839537

edit: briess golden light DME dissolved in 160ish hot water diluted to ~1.040

Do you do a "natural" pressure drop (cut heat, leave cooker sealed)? I have had issues with wort boiling over, but I suspect I was too impatient and caused it by venting the cooker.

 

[ba-brewer]

Do you do a "natural" pressure drop (cut heat, leave cooker sealed)? I have had issues with wort boiling over, but I suspect I was too impatient and caused it by venting the cooker.

Yes I allow the pressure to drop to zero naturally. If I am watching and remove as soon as I can after that happens the jar will continue to boil at times but I have never had an issue with seal getting compromised or having a boil over.

I give a decent amount of head space to try and keep the wort in the jar and not get it in the water in the canner to minimized clean up.

 

[AlcheMania]

So i brewed the pilsner as planned.
Ended up using some carapils @ 6% and also some 34/70 i had on hand instead of a liquid pils yeast. My effeciency ended up being way higher than i anticipated so i had to settle for a shorter boil (50 min total isntead of planned 75) and still endeed up at a 1.059 OG. 5 points higher than i planned. Oops.
All in all the trial was a success, as the press boiled liquid had a noteably different color, aroma, and flavor. And thats with only about 20 minutes at full pressure boil. Next time ill do 30-35. The straight mash juice was light n sweet with little aroma. The press boiled shot had some caramel and oatmeally/cereally flavors. Mild but immediately perceptible. How much this small 1 gallon portion will affect the end product (im working with only a 5 quart pressure cooker) remains to be seen but for me this was a huge success. Perceptible differences. No off flavors. Oh and clean up was a breeze. Just soaked in hot water and soap for 20 and the crud came right off with a scrub.

16 hrs post pitch got ferm activity.
Spunding valve set to 5 psi.
Temp 60 F
Will update when i tap in bout 5-6 weeks.

Time to smoke ribs, drink beer and watch football!

Update:
Well i said to hell with waiting for lagering, as i was down to one other beer, and tapped the Pilsner for the Super Bowl Party. Might be my fave pils yet and it flew off the handle. Guessing i got bout 1/3 a keg left (i hope) At the very least the process hurt nothing and was a minimal added effort on brew day. So Ill brew another batch this weekend, with a slightly longer pressure boil (30 vs 20 min) and a larger volume (1.5 gallons vs 1 gallon) and see how it goes. The pic below is only 3 days after primary to serving keg transfer and no finings. So still quite cloudy.

Cheers!

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for the update. Glad it turned out well.

 

[Agent]

Just adding my update to keep the creative juices flowing on this topic.

This weekend I did my version of the pressure cooker decoction for a Maibock. After a 30 minute mash at 148F, I took my BIAB full of grains and squeezed out most of the liquid before transferring to a stainless bowl nested in my 22qt pressure cooker. I let her rip at 15 PSI for 20 minutes, plus another 20 minutes of cooling. Then I stepped the mash up to 155F for another 30 minutes.

The process really accentuated the Munich malt flavors, and caused me to overshoot my OG by 10 points. I'll be curious how the final beer turns out.

Fun fact - the grains came out with a similar (low) moisture content as they went in at, but the boiler water was 8 brix of lovely deep golden wort.

 

[Bassman2003]

Very interesting. So I wonder what is happening during the 30 minute Alpha rest? The pressure cooker just blasted the enzymes to smithereens. Is there anything left at that point? I wonder if you could do the Beta and Alpha rests first, pressure cook and go straight to lautering hot?

Are the flavors/efficiency gains from the pressure cooking or running the Alpha rest after the pressure cooking?

 

[mashdar]

Very interesting. So I wonder what is happening during the 30 minute Alpha rest? The pressure cooker just blasted the enzymes to smithereens. Is there anything left at that point? I wonder if you could do the Beta and Alpha rests first, pressure cook and go straight to lautering hot?

Are the flavors/efficiency gains from the pressure cooking or running the Alpha rest after the pressure cooking?

Are grains or liquid going in the pressure cooker? If liquid, I agree, enzymes are already toast, might as well just boil.

 

[Miraculix]

Just adding my update to keep the creative juices flowing on this topic.

This weekend I did my version of the pressure cooker decoction for a Maibock. After a 30 minute mash at 148F, I took my BIAB full of grains and squeezed out most of the liquid before transferring to a stainless bowl nested in my 22qt pressure cooker. I let her rip at 15 PSI for 20 minutes, plus another 20 minutes of cooling. Then I stepped the mash up to 155F for another 30 minutes.

The process really accentuated the Munich malt flavors, and caused me to overshoot my OG by 10 points. I'll be curious how the final beer turns out.

Fun fact - the grains came out with a similar (low) moisture content as they went in at, but the boiler water was 8 brix of lovely deep golden wort.

That's a nice test! Thanks!

 

[Agent]

Are grains or liquid going in the pressure cooker? If liquid, I agree, enzymes are already toast, might as well just boil.

I pressure cooked the grains only with hardly any mash liquid, so most of my enzymes were safe and sound.

Are the flavors/efficiency gains from the pressure cooking or running the Alpha rest after the pressure cooking?

I'd have to assume from the pressure cooking. Otherwise my process has become pretty predictable being no sparge BIAB.

 

[Bassman2003]

Good points about the enzymes not being put in the pressure cooker. So boiling last might be more time efficient with regards to process and still achieve the same end result. You ended up with a 70 minute Beta rest & 30 minute Alpha rest which is what I realized when I did my recent decoctions. Fine but I was aware afterwards that it needed to be factored in.

 

[MicroMickey]

A friend of mine decided to brew a SMASH with only two row base malt. He simmered for 11 hrs. and finished the last hour with a full boil. He added brewing liquor as needed as the volume reduced. The pix above shows the effect of the Maillard reaction.

The traditional decoction mash has been done based on three different systems. The Bohemian, Vienna, and Bavarian systems are used to produce the types of beer usual in those regions. In Bohemia, where lighter colored beer was the style, a shorter decoction boiling time of 10 to 20 minutes was made; in Vienna the decoction boil lasted about 30 minutes; in Bavaria a decoction boil would last as long as 45 minutes. By variance of decoction boil times, a range of wort color can be made with a very simple grist bill.

There is only a portion of the mash which is decocted. There are normally plenty of enzymes available in the main mash to continue the mash conversion.

 

[AlcheMania]

View attachment 842765
A friend of mine decided to brew a SMASH with only two row base malt. He simmered for 11 hrs. and finished the last hour with a full boil. He added brewing liquor as needed as the volume reduced. The pix above shows the effect of the Maillard reaction.

The traditional decoction mash has been done based on three different systems. The Bohemian, Vienna, and Bavarian systems are used to produce the types of beer usual in those regions. In Bohemia, where lighter colored beer was the style, a shorter decoction boiling time of 10 to 20 minutes was made; in Vienna the decoction boil lasted about 30 minutes; in Bavaria a decoction boil would last as long as 45 minutes. By variance of decoction boil times, a range of wort color can be made with a very simple grist bill.

There is only a portion of the mash which is decocted. There are normally plenty of enzymes available in the main mash to continue the mash conversion.

Is that total boil time or boil time for each decoction?

 

[mashdar]

Is that total boil time or boil time for each decoction?

Mickey can elaborate, but I think he means main boil time, post mash, ie not a decoction. I've heard a longer boil can add color, but those are some interesting results!

 

[MicroMickey]

I guess I should have noted that it was a single infusion mash. I just wanted to illustrate how the melanoidins develop over time.

 

[AlcheMania]

I guess I should have noted that it was a single infusion mash. I just wanted to illustrate how the melanoidins develop over time.

Oh to clarify my question was in regards to this statement:
"In Bohemia, where lighter colored beer was the style, a shorter decoction boiling time of 10 to 20 minutes was made; in Vienna the decoction boil lasted about 30 minutes; in Bavaria a decoction boil would last as long as 45 minutes"

 

[Agent]

Time to stir this one back up.

The left is a pale mild with only Maris Otter, corn, and Invert #2. The right is the Maibock with 85% Pilsner, 15% dark Munich malt, and a pressure cooker decoction of the grains. Finished down to 1.012 for 9% ABV. The judges are definitely going to ding me for that.

This is certainly a method I'll be continuing to play with in the future.

 

[VikeMan]

The right is the Maibock with 85% Pilsner, 15% dark Munich malt, and a pressure cooker decoction of the grains. Finished down to 1.012 for 9% ABV. The judges are definitely going to ding me for that.

Maybe. Maybe not. Beers with ABVs in the upper range and often well above the upper range of BJCP guidelines tend to win more than those low and below.

 

[MicroMickey]

Oh to clarify my question was in regards to this statement:
"In Bohemia, where lighter colored beer was the style, a shorter decoction boiling time of 10 to 20 minutes was made; in Vienna the decoction boil lasted about 30 minutes; in Bavaria a decoction boil would last as long as 45 minutes"

Those times cited are for the decoction boil. After the decoction mash, the lauter and sparge are conducted before the main boil commences. This is why many brewers eschew a decoction mash as it really takes some time. However, keep in mind that decoction doesn't produce more malt flavor but better malt flavor.

 

[AlcheMania]

Update:
Well i said to hell with waiting for lagering, as i was down to one other beer, and tapped the Pilsner for the Super Bowl Party. Might be my fave pils yet and it flew off the handle. Guessing i got bout 1/3 a keg left (i hope) At the very least the process hurt nothing and was a minimal added effort on brew day. So Ill brew another batch this weekend, with a slightly longer pressure boil (30 vs 20 min) and a larger volume (1.5 gallons vs 1 gallon) and see how it goes. The pic below is only 3 days after primary to serving keg transfer and no finings. So still quite cloudy.

Cheers!

Interesting study about effects of time and temp on wort fermentability. (Link pasted below)

Ill be using the pressure cooker again this weekend for brewing my Pils.
This being my 3rd go with this process, im starting to think this is a legit hack for pulling off extra malty complexity and body while using modern pils malt and dry 34/70 in a 4 hr brew day.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343607490_Wort_Boil_Time_and_Trub_Effects_on_Fermentability

 

[AlcheMania]

Interesting study about effects of time and temp on wort fermentability. (Link pasted below)

Ill be using the pressure cooker again this weekend for brewing my Pils.
This being my 3rd go with this process, im starting to think this is a legit hack for pulling off extra malty complexity and body while using modern pils malt and dry 34/70 in a 4 hr brew day.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343607490_Wort_Boil_Time_and_Trub_Effects_on_Fermentability

Sample from fermenter pre transfer.
Very nice. Extra malty. Crisp finish @ 1.013 from 1.053 Will tap in 3 weeks. Cheers!

 

[Miraculix]

Sample from fermenter pre transfer.
Very nice. Extra malty. Crisp finish @ 1.013 from 1.053 Will tap in 3 weeks. Cheers!

Nice head! Does it last?

 

[AlcheMania]

Nice head! Does it last?

Def better than before. I took my time with the crash over 5 days this time.