pre-made starter worts

[Philip1993]

I thought I'd try something new today, so I boiled some wort and filled four 12oz bottles to the rim with boiling wort and capped them while still scalding hot. I then took the still hot & capped bottles, and placed them into the fridge for later use as starters.

Anyone got any thoughts pro or con about the idea? Since the wort was boiling when I poured it, is this as safe as "canning"?

 

[Beerrific]

I had some left over sweet wort one time and did this. I plan to open it and smell/taste it, if it checks out I will probably boil it again for 10-15 minutes just to be sure. A lot of people do this? You can also use it to prime if you bottle.

 

[Jekster]

I'm not sure about the science behind this, but I would be pretty wary of pouring boiling liquid into a beer bottle then crash cooling it like that... I'm not sure that beer bottles are tempered for such drastic changes in hot and cold...

 

[Jeff48]

If you are thinking that this is the same as home canning then you are probably wrong. In home canning, you boil the jars with the contents and lids in place. When the jars cool they pull a vacuum and seal. This solution is so you can store your contents without refrigeration. Your way of doing things does not pull a vaccuum. The big problem with home canned foods is the remote possibility of growing an anaerobic pathogen -- botulitis. That is a very deadly toxin that only grows in the absence of oxygen.


Actually, for what you want to do, all you need to do is put the wort in the bottle, cap it and cool it. It should last a week or two in the frig without any issues.

 

[Jeff48]

sorry double post

 

[Bellybuster]

Two things:
1 pouring boiling liquid into a beer bottle then capping is a recipe for disaster.
2 not even canning in the traditional sense give you the safest method for canning wort. The only truly safe way to preserve wort for future starters is to pressure can. The increase in pressure increases the boilng point and everything happens at a temp much higher than traditional canning methods.

just a point:
many brewers are canning wort by traditional means quite successfully. The chances of developing bad toxins are slim but real

 

[homebrewer_99]

Right. This has been prosented in the past.

All one has to do is follow the canning directions and you'll be ahead of the game.

 

[Philip1993]

I'm not sure about the science behind this, but I would be pretty wary of pouring boiling liquid into a beer bottle then crash cooling it like that... I'm not sure that beer bottles are tempered for such drastic changes in hot and cold...

Great point. I was a little puckered about the safety of this venture as well. FWIW, I did pre-heat the bottles to about 130-140, wore safety glasses, and kept them wrapped in a towel from pour to completion of the chill. And when it's time, I'll handle and uncap them in with PPE as well. Part of this little venture was to store wort, part was see what would happen in process.

If you are thinking that this is the same as home canning then you are probably wrong. In home canning, you boil the jars with the contents and lids in place. ... This solution is so you can store your contents without refrigeration.

Yes, and no. I'm not looking to store them unrefrigerated, but rather to store them refrigerated for periods of time longer than 1-2 weeks.

When the jars cool they pull a vacuum and seal. ... Your way of doing things does not pull a vaccuum.

Actually, it does. Anytime you raise the temperature of an open vessel above ambient temperature and seal it, the resultant space will have a negative pressure at ambient temperature. In this case, I left zero head space. The cap liner actually displaced boiling wort as it was sealed. 24 hours later, there is a small head space created by the negative pressure forcing dissolved air out of solution.

The big problem with home canned foods is the remote possibility of growing an anaerobic pathogen -- botulitis. That is a very deadly toxin that only grows in the absence of oxygen.

Actually, for what you want to do, all you need to do is put the wort in the bottle, cap it and cool it. It should last a week or two in the frig without any issues.

Yep. And bio-pathogens are my real concern. I know botulism doesn't die at 212, but I don't need 10 years of room temperature storage either. That said, I would like to see 12 months of fridge life. If that means pressure canning, forget it. I'll just make the wort at brew time...

 

[Got Trub?]

I use Mason jars covered with foil and pressure cook them for 20min. This is the equivalent of autoclaving and they are sterile. What you have done is sanitize - ie kill most bacteria/yeast and spores but not 100%. You could improve the chances of not getting spoilage by adding some hops to the wort. I would also just set the caps on the bottles and let them cool before capping to prevent getting a partial vacuum in them.

 

[Philip1993]

I use Mason jars covered with foil and pressure cook them for 20min.

I'm curious. If you going to all the trouble to pressure cook them, why would you not put the lids and rings on the jars in the cooker. That's all that differs between your process and 'true' pressure canning.

You could improve the chances of not getting spoilage by adding some hops to the wort.

Did that.

I would also just set the caps on the bottles and let them cool before capping to prevent getting a partial vacuum in them.

This I don't understand. Placing the caps on the bottle while hot would encourage development of a vacuum. And even so, that would seem to be a good thing.

pouring boiling liquid into a beer bottle then capping is a recipe for disaster.

I totally get why the huge heat change is dangerous, but how does capping increase that risk?

 

[Philip1993]

Guys,

I was re-reading my earlier replies and they sounded a little argumentative and/or defensive. That was not my intent, and if anyone took it that way, I apologize. I appreciate and respect all your responses and information. I'm just trying to explore this subject and your information a little more deeply so I can understand the science, logic, and feasibility behind my little stove top experiment.

Thanks again for everyone input, please keep it coming

Philip

 

[Monster Mash]

Since my minimum starters are 1.5 gallons I bit the bullet and bought a canner. I feel much safer knowing the wort has been boiled at 250 degrees and pressure sealed since I make up 28 quarts of wort at a time. I've had some on the shelf for up to 8 months without any problems.

 

[Bellybuster]

beer bottles and caps are designed to hold some positive pressure, a vacuum is negative pressure and personally I'd be a bit worried more about the caps leaking than the bottles being a problem.

 

[Philip1993]

I feel much safer knowing the wort has been boiled at 250 degrees and pressure sealed since I make up 28 quarts of wort at a time. I've had some on the shelf for up to 8 months without any problems.

My granny used to pressure can and I can tell you that lids often rusted through long before the seal broke or the contents spoiled. Also, when canning (pressure or home), the popped up button/lid is a sure fire sign of seal breakage and a pretty good sign of internal infection.

 

[Bellybuster]

I think what most of us are tryin to say is this wheel has already been invented and it's as round as she's gettin

 

[Philip1993]

this wheel has already been invented and it's as round as she's gettin

That's what they kept telling the Wrights about their damned fool ideas of flying...

 

[Got Trub?]

Bellybuster posted what my concern would be with bottling very hot wort.

I don't use the lid and rings because you don't need them. Foil is sufficient - I worked for many years in a lab and thats how all glassware, media etc is prepared and stored, YMMV...

 

[Philip1993]

I don't use the lid and rings because you don't need them. Foil is sufficient - I worked for many years in a lab and thats how all glassware, media etc is prepared and stored, YMMV...

I'm confused. You mean for sterilizing empty jars and other vessels, correct? If so, that makes perfect sense. If you meant for canning wort, please educate me

 

[BierMuncher]

I keep my premade starter wort in powder form...in a bag...labeled "Extra Light DME".

Keeps a real long time.

 

[Bellybuster]

That's what they kept telling the Wrights about their damned fool ideas of flying...

touche on that one

 

[Philip1993]

I keep my premade starter wort in powder form...in a bag...labeled "Extra Light DME".

That's very funny. AND very true. DME is dehydrated starter wort....

One interesting update: I was browsing through NJOHB tonight and I found my exact starter wort storage process on page 276-9(ish). Pre-warmed beer bottles and all. That find sparked two thoughts:

- Wow, Charlie recommends this method.
- This is identical to my 'idea'. I must have read this sometime in the past.