Potential fix to oxidation issues?

[Bayern1987]

I am expecting to be put down on this before the idea has been taken off runway and I not a noob as much been brewing for over a year but....

My latest batch seems to suffering from oxidation... quite stale and not very pleasant on the nose as well as tasting quite bland and dry....

I am having issues transferring with the spigot... especially after adding gelatin... it seems as though the pressure of gratitude if not enough and the beer seems to want to tra else back up as much as down... any ideas regarding this? I may just get a 2m auto siphon and start transferring that way again.... as you can imagine a lot of splashing and messing about took place... anyway to the main point...

Would it do any good to add more sugar to the keg / fermenting beer in the aim that the yeast will chew up any oxygen there and / or also mask any reaction/ stale flavours of the beer? I am guessing that oxidation is a reaction in itself where the molecules have changed and this would provide no benefit? Just want to throw it out there! If it is game over for my beer... is there anything at all that can be done to save it? Thank you fellow brew troopers

 

[Bayern1987]

***gratitude should read gravity ha!

 

[hottpeper13]

With a hose from the valve to the bottom of the keg ,once the beer starts flowing it should pull it down just like a siphon, with no splashing.

 

[Dland]

I don't know about saving current batch, but might be time to consider closed transfers.

Another idea would be to consider a end of boil fining such as whirlflock and forgo the gelatin.

 

[Bayern1987]

I think I'm going to stick with hefeweizen for a while... closed transfers might be worth looking into! That spigot thing is annoying me now... wonder if there is a way to get it to pour quicker and stop the obstruction...

Takes ages to bottle beer with that little bottler thing during to this.... if it's not one thing it's another thank you!

 

[Jag75]

Closed transfer is definitely what you need to be doing .

 

[IslandLizard]

***gratitude should read gravity ha!

You can always edit your posts (at least for quite some time).

In this case, "the pressure of gratitude" seems to be spot on.
(damn, ungrateful beer...)

 

[Dr_Jeff]

possibly try to put some folded towels under the side of the fermenter with the spigot, thus raising it before adding the gelatin, now everything should settle on the other side of the fermenter, when it's time to transfer the beer, slowly remove the towels and gently sit the fermenter down and transfger the beer to the keg tubing that reaches to the bottom of the keg, as to minimize splashing

 

[Bayern1987]

Haha Lizard... thankss for the advice! You're right with all the time effort and money spent beer should be grateful

Dr Jeff... nice one I will give it a try! Still spending money on good German wheat beer this is what I eventually want to perfect! Thank you everybody

 

[IslandLizard]

beer should be grateful

^ That looks like a grateful (and graceful) beer to me!
Decent thick, creamy head. Is that one of your homebrews?

 

[Bayern1987]

Haha! No Island it is just and everyday Weissbier that I get from Aldi. Good for the price. That is what I am trying to get with mine! Sometimes I get the colour and body in the past but the head has been around for a minute tops and then disappearw. Recently it been lost in an instant. Thanks

 

[jerrylotto]

I'm having some trouble with picturing your transfer setup from your description. Ultimately when you do a gravity transfer from a fermenter to a keg you want the fermenter to be high and the keg to be low. The bottom of the fermenter should feed the "liquid out" post of the keg, and the gas connection on the keg should return pressure to the top of the fermenter. Pre purge everything with CO2. I'll post a picture of my setup when I can get to another computer.

 

[Bayern1987]

Thanks Jerry!

I haven't got a picture of it when transferring but I use the spigot like in this photo and instead of the little bottle I just run a line of silicon tubing fowj into the keg (I've only kegged once to be fair) and it takes for ages or doesn't pour at all and I need to turn the spigot on and off a few times... you actually see it struggling to move down with gravity (no gratitude lizard ) and not really move... don't know if it is cos everything has solidified with the cold crashing and gelatin or the force upwards is more that the gravity, etc.

In regards to the oxidation... I have bumped the psi up to a serving pressure of 15 and tried my beer again today... miraculously it tastes a lot better! Could it be the co2 has scrubbed some of this oxidation from the beer? Or needed a few days to condition in the keg? Or perhaps the part of the batch which had oxidised got poured out with the first few pints! What do you guys think? Really interesting by the way and the lager is tasting just like it did the last time I made this batch and bottled it. Could be a fluke.... I will pour another pint....

Also... I am new to kegging and it seems to be pouring really slowly! I mean super slow.... could this be the gelatin? Definitely no trub in there and it is at 15 psi... I am going to take a video and let yous see... and if the next pint is just as good!

 

[Bayern1987]

This is picture to give an idea of the setup... only one I've got apologies Jello hope you get the idea!

 

[Bayern1987]

Is this slower than should be expected?

 

[jerrylotto]

The thing I'm not seeing in your photos is how you are equalizing pressure. The keg is taking liquid and compressing gas. The fermenter is losing liquid and thus pulling a vacuum if both containers are otherwise sealed. That is why I have two lines. The gas displaced by the liquid transfer to the keg just travels up the exhaust and equalizes pressure. Alternatively, you can pressurize your fermenter with CO2 and put a spunding valve on the keg gas line to push the liquid down to the keg. Either way, you have make sure that the head pressure of the fermenter is always greater than or equal to the keg.

 

[Jim R]

You can use a larger diameter hose. The flow rate will be determined by the resistance in the hose (determined by the size of the siphon port and the hose) and the pressure difference from top to bottom (determined by the height if just using gravity). I assume your bucket fermenter and the keg are open to air and not pressure sealed.

 

[Bayern1987]

Ahhh I get you Jello kinda makes more sense! That's the bit I needed explaining the science that dictates the pressure.

The spigot I am stuck with the size of that unless I get one with a bigger diameter. The hose I attached to it is 1 metre long. I am thinking about just getting a really good auto siphon and using that what you think? The means I vsn control completely how much yeast gelatin or trub is uptaken and I can ensure the lids are closed over during transfer as much as is possible.

The fermenter was air sealed but obviously I had to take the airlock out during cold crashing. I sanitised some aluminium foil and plugged the hole up as securely as possible to minimise any oxygen. I was thinking that if is was sealed then the gravity plus the pressure would be even more and the pull in the beer would be greater as in it would transfer more quickly dur to the co2 wanting to escape in this direction? Is that a good idea to use this? Maybe I should try and seal it up more tightly in future and use this force to transfer.

 

[jerrylotto]

If you have a tank of CO2 and a regulator, you can create all kinds of connections to make up pressure changes due to cold crashing, gravity transfers, or anything else. The last thing you want is to have a sealed high side for a gravity transfer. You either need to introduce gas to maintain a higher pressure than your take up vessel or a closed loop like I show in my picture. Likewise the target vessel needs a way to vent gas if you not using a closed loop.

 

[Bayern1987]

I'll keep that in mind! Will give it a try on my next batch do you seal the keg with co2 first to create more pressure. I never though of doing it like that! Nice one. What do you think of the video showing my beer pouring does it seem to be going to slow? Thanks again Jello

 

[jerrylotto]

A bit slow. I keep about 8-10 psi on my kegs for pouring. I would suspect a hop or gelatin plug at the out poppet or liquid draw tube. If you put a liquid connector on the your CO2 tank hose and blow some gas into the liquid "out" you might be able to clear it.

Best way to cold crash IMHO is to transfer to keg first, force carb at 30-40 psi and stick the keg into a keezer at 34F but you need clean beer in the keg to do it.

 

[Jim R]

You certainly can get an autosiphon for transfers to the keg and you will get faster flow with the bigger hose. Of course, that won't help with oxidation issues. On the other hand, slow transfers aren't the end of the world.

If you are serious about preventing oxidation with fermentation and pressure transfers, you need a fermenter that is made to hold pressure (like the picture above). I wouldn't even bother trying to seal a bucket fermenter for pressure fermentation or pressure transfers. Fortunately, there are pressure capable fermenters that aren't that expensive. I use a $49 Fermzilla All Rounder although it does really require the floating dip tube and a Spunding valve which increases the cost. Then you can easliy put, for example, 12 psi in the sealed fermenter and 10 psi in the sealed keg and speed up the flow.

 

[tracer bullet]

As mentioned, ensure you have a return loop so the air in the keg is transferred back to the top of the fermenter.

Bonus if it's CO2 not air - fill the fermenter with water and then use CO2 to push it out. When you're done, it's full of CO2.

One other thing might be important - you might be having hops or other bits of stuff clog the input at the keg itself. When I do my transfer I actually have a dedicated keg post and attachment for it that have the poppets removed so I can ensure a smooth transfer.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

First, I did not read through all the great responses so apologize for any replication.

Would it do any good to add more sugar to the keg / fermenting beer in the aim that the yeast will chew up any oxygen there and / or also mask any reaction/ stale flavours of the beer?

^Regarding adding more sugar - from what I have read the absorption of oxygen and oxidation damage will occur far faster than any oxygen scavenging the yeast will do (if they do it at all) during carbonation. The oxygen scavenging is another brewing myth that has never been substantiated.

As you have started kegging, there are a number of great ways to reduce cold side oxygen exposure. In order of easiest to deploy...

1. Do not cold crash in the fermenter, it will suck in quite a bit of air (oxygen). As you keg now, just cold crash in the keg which can be pressurized with CO2, so no suck back
2. Push the beer into the sealed keg down the keg out-tube with your CO2 - so very little splashing and no oxygen exposure on the fermenter side. Just vent the air in the keg through the pressure release valve or gas ball lock. It only takes <1 psi to push the beer. Just need to insert a carbonation ball lock into your stopper (may need to widen barb with a little piece of tubing). As I ferment in a chest freezer, this also enables you to not have to lift the fermenter, just push it up and over into the keg. BTW, you should get a postal scale to weigh your keg as the beer flows into so you know when it is filled (8.34 * FG * gallons in keg)
3. Capture your fermentation CO2 in the cleaned keg - analytics have shown that this will scrub out nearly all the O2 from the keg. It results in even lower PPB then CO2 tank gas. Just fill the cleaned keg with 16 OZ of starsan solution, shake, and then hook connector between the fermenter and keg then vent the gas out the keg gas post. Prior to kegging, push the starsan out the out-dip tube - use a barbed ball lock and racking tubing to do this as you will sanitize these prior to transfer
4. If you are concerned about blowoff and you want to keep krausen out of the keg, use two carbonation ball locks, a soda bottle tee and create a krausen catcher prior to venting the gas - basically a mini keg in front of the packaging keg. For very big krausens (such as with Belgian strains), you will need a big soda bottle or you won't be able to this.

If you do all these thing, you have essential eliminated all cold side oxygen. Pictures of some of the attachments below...

Capturing CO2 - keg has 16oz of starsans which I will push out before kegging. CO2 tank for pushing beer will be attached to fermenter gas ball lock post inserted in stopper when fermentation is complete.

Krausen Catcher - just daisy chain it before keg (there is a tube in the bottle that you can't see)

 

[Bayern1987]

Nice one Jello! I'll give it a try tomorrow thanks!

Will look into that Jim. Definitely something I would be looking to get in the future!

Going to do that with my next batch Tracer cheers for the input.

Holden that is a great answer thanks for that... some useful info there. Is your name from catcher in the rye by any chance? 100% going to cold crash in the fermenter in future! A closed transfer system is the way forward for me and I've got a really good idea now of what I need to do next time. It is strange though why yesterday I could taste oxidation in this lager... as there was clearly splashing and messing up with the transfer.... and after upping the psi to 15 and leaving it to try today it seems just like I expected it to be! It is smooth... has nice aroma... and feels both softer smoother and creamier... unlike the dry bland tasting pints I had yesterday... Apart from the slow pour (going to try that method of blowing gas through the liquid pipe to clear it) and not being as clear as I would want (still perfecting the old gelatin method). I have been reading about adding gelatin to the keg is this a good idea? I just worried about this potentially clogging the pipe again... to be honest my favourite beer is hefeweizen anyway so most of the time it won't be needed! Thanks for all of the help I appreciate it

 

[Holden Caulfield]

100% going to cold crash in the fermenter in future!

^I think (hope) you mean keg. Cold crashing in the fermenter will suck in air (unless you capture some CO2 in something like a balloon and attach to airlock)

Could it be the co2 has scrubbed some of this oxidation from the beer?

It is strange though why yesterday I could taste oxidation in this lager

^Regarding oxygen, you really can't taste O2 (the oxygen molecule in air), what you can taste is dissolved oxygen chemically reacting with compounds in your beer creating off and muted flavors. CO2 will not scrub out oxidized compounds. The change in flavor you experienced after carbonating more was probably due to achieving the right level of carbonation.

I have been reading about adding gelatin to the keg is this a good idea?

Brulosophy is a site where an ordinary homebrewer compares the same beers except one variable and then conducts taste tests to obtain information on if the variable made a difference. There are a few exbeeriments with gelatin. Here is a link to one - The Gelatin Effect | exBEERiment Results!. To summarize all the results, no change in flavor or aroma, huge change in clarity, works better than other vegan/non-vegan fining agents. Bottom line - gelatin works great. I don't use it because it is just another step and the clarity it provides is not critical to me. Also, its not vegetarian or kosher and I want my beer to be enjoyed by all. (Note, there are many who enjoy Brulosophy and many that do not like the way they present their findings and conduct their exbeeriments. Up to you on how much credence you want to give their exbeeriments and results.)

 

[Bayern1987]

I did mean cold crash in the keg!

Nice one regarding the science on the oxygen. I can live with the results for this batch... tho definitely want to perfect as much as possible going forward! I am familiar with brulosophy I have read quite a few of their articles... will check it out thank you! Think if I am going to cold crash in the fermenter I will try and fine my gelatin process. I suspect I may have heated it for too long in the microwave as my thermometer broke and I need a new one so had to judge it. I had it working a lot better on one of my last batches. Will check out brulosophy and use it better.

I guess it must seems to be about perfecting every little detail but it all making a lot more sense now. Thank you

 

[Bayern1987]

Right... I have tried hitting the out post with co2 to clear the dip tube... hooked everything back up as normal and... still pouring really proper super slowly...

I don't know what else I can do... I did when drunk manage to drop the co2 tank the other day and it damaged the other gauge (not the psi serving pressure one) could this be the reason for it and it us not in fact 15 psi coming through? This would not make sense though as it did carbonate it well and this gauge did not seem to be affected...

I am reluctant to hit the beer with say 40-50 psi serving pressure incase anything adverse happens...

The co2 tank is turned all the way to open... I can't think of anything else now... it pours a decent beer... head retention and carbonation great... just takes about 3 weeks to pour it any ideas?

 

[jerrylotto]

When you connect CO2 to the outpost, you have to vent it out the safety release so that you're flowing gas. Otherwise all you're doing is pressurizing the tank through the liquid post and not clearing anything. I just wanted make this clear in case it wasn't already obvious.

 

[Rickdude]

I am guessing that oxidation is a reaction in itself where the molecules have changed and this would provide no benefit? Just want to throw it out there! If it is game over for my beer... is there anything at all that can be done to save it?

Yep, and covering the flavor is going to be pretty tough. Maybe some fruit extracts or something like that. Yarrow root has a funky flavor that might cover it.

Another idea would be to find a buddy who owns a Grainfather with a distillation adapter. I don't suppose you live in eastern Virginia...? ;-)

 

[tracer bullet]

I think at this point we are suggesting a closed transfer, and you're trying it but it's not working?

If that is the case, take a picture of your setup and we can probably troubleshoot it. It's actually pretty easy overall but it could be that you're missing some particular detail.

 

[Bayern1987]

I've tried that Jello... did it again whilst venting... do you think my regulator is broken? In my opinion the dip tube isn't clogged... it is just pouring really slow...

Always wanted to visit Virginia Rick but unfortunately not the beer does not taste oxidised now after fully carbonation and leaving it a couple of days... seems to have conditioned well and tastes pretty good!

I am going to try a closed transfer in future Tracer! Not worried about that until.my next batch..m I have just started kegging and the beer is pouring super slow... trying to work out what is going on! Tried clearing the dip tube etc. And I bumped the psi up to 15 but nothing is working... I have tried connecting everything again... doesn't seem to be a gas leak but I did drop me regulator the other day and smash the other gauge which tells you how much is left in the co2 tank... was advised this was cool and would still work... and it did work to help me carbonate and does pour... just really slow. I do have 3m of 3/16 beer line but I took it I would need this to reduce foam as I will eventually be pouring hefeweizen with a lot of carbonation..... what do you guys think? Would cutting this to 2m help or would it increase foam and do you think the problem lies elsewhere? Thanks again troops

 

[jerrylotto]

Has this ever poured well? Do you have another keg that you can fill with water to test the system?

 

[Bayern1987]

Only got it last week Jello so nothing to really compare it to... I don't have any other kegs either... should I maybe turn the psi up to 30 and try and pour? 3m of 3/16 ,beer line surely wouldn't be the cause either? It worked to carbonate the beer well.... I really have no ideas what is going on.......

 

[cmac62]

Bayern, here are a couple of threads that may be helpful:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...lete-closed-transfer-system-for-cheap.680992/https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...me-keg-that-the-beer-gets-served-from.691858/https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...rom-the-same-keg-without-transferring.676007/
I've done and used the fermonster method, but not yet the ferm and serve in the same keg method. Good luck and May the 4th be with you.

 

[cmac62]

I've also started using a combination of chems Ascorbic Acid, Campden (K-metabisulfate) and brewtan b (affectionately called trifecta) to protect the beer prior to transfer. There are tons of threads that discus the proper use.

 

[cmac62]

Brewtan B is also an excellent fining agent from what I understand.