possible control panel enclosure?

[CidahMastah]

I believe you are talking about me here, Cidah.

This is how I fixed it; one blows in, one blows out:

busted! yup I was talking about you. I had thought to go grab a pic of your fan situation, but you beat me to it

 

[CidahMastah]

Well you saved the premature death of my SSR at least

 

[pola0502ds]

Haha - very cool build

I would recc installing the heat sinks on the outside or venting your box and putting in a fan or two to keep the SSRs cool. One guy on here had a seal box with sinks inside, and his SSR was toasted, he thought from overheating. I ended up installing a fan on my box to blow across the sink and vent out the back.

I use a 120v 1500w heating element on my rims system and I have touched the heat sink after running for a few hours and it's not even warm. It may get warm for the 5500w elements, I don't know.

 

[CidahMastah]

I use a 120v 1500w heating element on my rims system and I have touched the heat sink after running for a few hours and it's not even warm. It may get warm for the 5500w elements, I don't know.

I shot a laser thermometer at mine and it got to ~190F before I added my fan (at the advice of Walker). That is when he told me he toasted one of his SSR's.

For the record, my system is 240v 5500Welement - so that would be the difference in your personal experience and mine.

My control panel was designed for 10G batches.

 

[pola0502ds]

Mine is designed for 10 gallons as well. I'm using a rims tube and you might be doing something different? The way my system is designed, I am getting amazing ramp times with this small element.

 

[CidahMastah]

Mine is designed for 10 gallons as well. I'm using a rims tube and you might be doing something different? The way my system is designed, I am getting amazing ramp times with this small element.

you are doing 10 gallon boils with a 1500w element? Or are you talking about your mash temps only.

 

[O'Haggerty]

you are doing 10 gallon boils with a 1500w element? Or are you talking about your mash temps only.

He said RIMS tube, it's for stepping up mash temperature, not heating boil volumes.

 

[CidahMastah]

He said RIMS tube, it's for stepping up mash temperature, not heating boil volumes.

My point was.... you need to either have a ginormous heat sink, or vent it with a fan - or risk burning out your SSR as walker did if you plan on going electric for your boil.

I know what a rims is, but I am wondering how he boils (just checked his thread and looks like he is a gas boil - didn't expect that so my bad).

I just assumed if you have the electrical control box, you would absolutely aim to boil electric as well as mash, etc.

If you go for your boil you would need - 1. a 4500W+ or higher element for 10G 2. a standard heat sink would get very warm. Since he is on gas this is irrelevant.

It looks like earthbound is on gas for the boil - so now I see where poland is coming from.

 

[EarthBound]

Yes, currently I'm using a propane RIMS/HERMS systems right now, but I will be upgrading my brewstand to have ERIMS (via a RIMS tube) and EHERMS (which uses two elements, one in the HLT and one in the BK).

When you measured ~190F, did you have any heatsinks installed?

 

[CidahMastah]

Yes, currently I'm using a propane RIMS/HERMS systems right now, but I will be upgrading my brewstand to have ERIMS (via a RIMS tube) and EHERMS (which uses two elements, one in the HLT and one in the BK).

When you measured ~190F, did you have any heatsinks installed?

yes I had a 40amp rated sink installed. I was getting 190F on the heat sink fins - and my box was vented and it was cool out.

If you are going two smaller elements off two SSRs it might be a different story - mine is set up as 1 5500e 10 system. The HLT is the BK as well.

 

[Walker]

A RIMS tube during the mash will likely not result in a hot SSR. The heavy lifting for the water heating is not happening, and the RIMS is just doing short sporadic bursts of heat to keep the temp maintained. In other words, the SSR is OFF way more than it is ON, so not much heating up of the SSR.

During big temp raises and while maintaining a boil, the SSR will be ON a lot more than during a temp-controlled mash, so that's when your heat will start building.

 

[EarthBound]

yes I had a 40amp rated sink installed. I was getting 190F on the heat sink fins - and my box was vented and it was cool out.

If you are going two smaller elements off two SSRs it might be a different story - mine is set up as 1 5500e 10 system. The HLT is the BK as well.

You had two elements and one SSR? Was the heatsink mounted on the inside or outside of the control panel? What do you have now?

I plan on using two 5500W elements (for the EHERMS) and one 2000W element (for the ERIMS), but only one element may be running at a time. Each element will have it's own SSR, and each SSR will have it's own externally-mounted heatsink. Do you think that'll be good enough, or should I install a ventilation system?

 

[CidahMastah]

You had two elements and one SSR? Was the heatsink mounted on the inside or outside of the control panel? What do you have now?

I plan on using two 5500W elements (for the EHERMS) and one 2000W element (for the ERIMS), but only one element may be running at a time. Each element will have it's own SSR, and each SSR will have it's own externally-mounted heatsink. Do you think that'll be good enough, or should I install a ventilation system?

First I should say - I am not offering wiring advice - just my personal experience with my PID and SSR temps (ans some hand me down experience from Walker's failed SSR).

That said, I have one element in one pot - this pot services as the HLT and the BK.

The element is 240v x 5500W. I built my control box with two 240v outlets, both fed by 1 SSR. I switch the SSR to either outlet or to the OFF position. Right now I am only using one outlet.

The reason I have two outlets is that I plan on upgrading to an eherms down the road for the mash - right now I use the HLT to heat strike and sparge water, then use it at the end for the boil as well. i.e. my mash is direct fire propane after it gets strike water if it looses temp (usually does not over 1 hour).

Does that make sense?

I think that if you put the sinks outside they probably should be alright - but I don't understand:

1. why you would need two 5500w elements - how many gallons are you doing?
2. what size heat sinks you have - Are they the 40amp ones?

You could always put them outside the box and see what temp they get. It wouldn't hurt to have a fan blow across them, but the only significant heat generated in your box would be from the SSR's - so no need for internal ventilation if the SSR's sinks are outside the box.

 

[pola0502ds]

For what it's worth,

I plan to heat my HLT water with only my RIMS tube because I am getting great results. Electric is cheaper than propane. I maintain my mash temp with the rims tube and the only time I turn my burners on is when I go to boil. I didn't design it this way (to heat the hlt with the rims tube) but I am getting such great results that it wouldn't make sense for me not to heat the HLT with the rims tube.

Wake up in the morning, kick the system on and walk back in the house until I hear my alarm go off telling my the HLT is ready. If I was in a hurry I would use some flame on the HLT.

Point is, I can heat a my strike water with only the rims tube and the ssr and heat sink don't even get warm and even in a ventless control box.

 

[CidahMastah]

For what it's worth,

I plan to heat my HLT water with only my RIMS tube because I am getting great results. Electric is cheaper than propane. I maintain my mash temp with the rims tube and the only time I turn my burners on is when I go to boil. I didn't design it this way (to heat the hlt with the rims tube) but I am getting such great results that it wouldn't make sense for me not to heat the HLT with the rims tube.

Wake up in the morning, kick the system on and walk back in the house until I hear my alarm go off telling my the HLT is ready. If I was in a hurry I would use some flame on the HLT.

Point is, I can heat a my strike water with only the rims tube and the ssr and heat sink don't even get warm and even in a ventless control box.

Not saying any of your set up is bad - but for me the savings of electric was all about the boil. A 60 to 90 minute boil is what eats your propane. You would realize the most savings by getting yourself an electric boiling rig IMO.

 

[EarthBound]

First I should say - I am not offering wiring advice - just my personal experience with my PID and SSR temps (ans some hand me down experience from Walker's failed SSR).

That said, I have one element in one pot - this pot services as the HLT and the BK.

The element is 240v x 5500W. I built my control box with two 240v outlets, both fed by 1 SSR. I switch the SSR to either outlet or to the OFF position. Right now I am only using one outlet.

The reason I have two outlets is that I plan on upgrading to an eherms down the road for the mash - right now I use the HLT to heat strike and sparge water, then use it at the end for the boil as well. i.e. my mash is direct fire propane after it gets strike water if it looses temp (usually does not over 1 hour).

Does that make sense?

I think that if you put the sinks outside they probably should be alright - but I don't understand:

1. why you would need two 5500w elements - how many gallons are you doing?
2. what size heat sinks you have - Are they the 40amp ones?

You could always put them outside the box and see what temp they get. It wouldn't hurt to have a fan blow across them, but the only significant heat generated in your box would be from the SSR's - so no need for internal ventilation if the SSR's sinks are outside the box.

Yep, it makes sense.

I need two 5500W elements for my EHERMS... one for the HLT and one for the BK. I'm doing 11-12 gallon batches. I'm sure 4500W would be more than adequate, but I found the 5500W for cheap ($7 each).

I'm not sure exactly what size they are because I bought them used. From the pictures I've seen of 25A and 40A heatsinks, I would say that mine are closer to the 25A ones. I have two of them. They will be "glued" together side-by-side, so they will be acting together as one bigger heatsink. All three SSRs will be "glued" to the two heatsinks.

When you measured ~190F, was the heatsink mounted on the inside or the outside of the enclosure? Was it during the boil? You said your box was vented at the time of that measurement... was there a fan installed?

 

[CidahMastah]

Yep, it makes sense.

I need two 5500W elements for my EHERMS... one for the HLT and one for the BK. I'm doing 11-12 gallon batches. I'm sure 4500W would be more than adequate, but I found the 5500W for cheap ($7 each).

I'm not sure exactly what size they are because I bought them used. From the pictures I've seen of 25A and 40A heatsinks, I would say that mine are closer to the 25A ones. I have two of them. They will be "glued" together side-by-side, so they will be acting together as one bigger heatsink. All three SSRs will be "glued" to the two heatsinks.

When you measured ~190F, was the heatsink mounted on the inside or the outside of the enclosure? Was it during the boil? You said your box was vented at the time of that measurement... was there a fan installed?

Gotacha on the three elements - I thought you were putting two elements in one pot - but you are going to have an element on each pot. I planon using my HLT for eherms during the mash (use HLT water through a copper "chiller" sort of).

Anyway - I measured the sink heat under boiling conditions on the element and with the control box top off and opened, exposing the SSR and sink to cool air. My sink is a 40 amp sink. 25amp might get quite toasty.

I later installed a fan and haven't gotten a number on the temps on the sink. I do know, I couldn't keep my fingers on the sink before (too hot). With the fan on, I can keep my fingers on the sink without discomfort.

Check out the photos here so you get an idea of how I put the fan on:
(post #371)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electric-burners-any-builders-out-there-228720/index38.html

You can sort of see the layout of where the heat sink is here:
(post #295)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electric-burners-any-builders-out-there-228720/index30.html

That wasn't the final wiring - but the SSR location stayed the same

 

[pola0502ds]

Not saying any of your set up is bad - but for me the savings of electric was all about the boil. A 60 to 90 minute boil is what eats your propane. You would realize the most savings by getting yourself an electric boiling rig IMO.

Yeah, i understand that. I have no intensions of using the rims tube to heat my HLT but after testing I figured I could. It was designed to mostly use propane. Whenever I can, i will go to natural gas but I don't think I will ever add a heating element to my BK.

 

[EarthBound]

Gotacha on the three elements - I thought you were putting two elements in one pot - but you are going to have an element on each pot. I planon using my HLT for eherms during the mash (use HLT water through a copper "chiller" sort of).

Anyway - I measured the sink heat under boiling conditions on the element and with the control box top off and opened, exposing the SSR and sink to cool air. My sink is a 40 amp sink. 25amp might get quite toasty.

I later installed a fan and haven't gotten a number on the temps on the sink. I do know, I couldn't keep my fingers on the sink before (too hot). With the fan on, I can keep my fingers on the sink without discomfort.

Check out the photos here so you get an idea of how I put the fan on:
(post #371)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electric-burners-any-builders-out-there-228720/index38.html

You can sort of see the layout of where the heat sink is here:
(post #295)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electric-burners-any-builders-out-there-228720/index30.html

That wasn't the final wiring - but the SSR location stayed the same

I will have a 5500W element in the HLT and a 5500W element in the BK for EHERMS capability, and I'll have a 2000W element (I call it the MLT element for simplicity) inside a RIMS tube for ERIMS capability.

If I do install a fan, I will also mount it externally as I do not have the room for it in my control panel. It will be the most congested control panel on this forum, guaranteed.

 

[CidahMastah]

It will be the most congested control panel on this forum, guaranteed.

Haha - nice! The way I figure it is, if it fits, great. I was concerned about mine, but it all has a home and so I am happy.

I think once you juice it up you will know if your ventilation is enough. You may want to follow walker's example since his box most resembles yours. i.e. intake and outtake.

 

[pola0502ds]

Anyone with heating element have them rust on you? Somehow I left some water in my rims tube for a couple days and it rusted at the base of it? I thought these were not suppose to rust. My element isn't stainless steel.

 

[CidahMastah]

Anyone with heating element have them rust on you? Somehow I left some water in my rims tube for a couple days and it rusted at the base of it? I thought these were not suppose to rust. My element isn't stainless steel.

Most of them will rust because there isn't an anode present like there is in a water heater when they are used. to avoid it, NEVER leave them in water if the water isn't being heating. Keep them dry in between brewing.

 

[pola0502ds]

Thank you sir. Will the stainless steel incolnoy ones even rust? I don't know if the base is stainless as well as the element itself.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thank you sir. Will the stainless steel incolnoy ones even rust? I don't know if the base is stainless as well as the element itself.

I think you are right (base will rust). I seem to recall reading someone claiming their stainless element was rusting. Also the stainless finish is pretty wimpy from what I have heard.

That is all hearsay though - not personal experience

 

[EarthBound]

I think you are right (base will rust). I seem to recall reading someone claiming their stainless element was rusting. Also the stainless finish is pretty wimpy from what I have heard.

That is all hearsay though - not personal experience

I recall hearing that, as well.

pola, check out jkarp's posts in this thread. He provides a link to the copper elements. He says that they last much longer.

 

[HHP]

I know I'm resurrecting a two month old thread here, but its my thread and I'll do what I want!

P-J (and anyone else who has used the Auber project box):

Do you think I can fit both contactors, and an SSR in the Auber project box? Also, I have two L6-30, an L14-30, an XLR connector, and two regular 120v outlets for power and I/O to the panel.

Is this overload for that little box? It seems like it is, but I would really like to use it if possible. If its too big for an Auber box then I'm going to go with a din rail, terminal blocks, and breakers inside a regular enclosure.

How big of a box do I need for all that? If I go with a regular enclosure, I think I'll make a two tier stand and mount the box right underneath the higher tier.

 

[P-J]

I think it might fit but it would be very tight. The contactors take a chunk of space as well as the power outlets. I think you might be better off with a larger box.

 

[GRHunter]

I think it might fit but it would be very tight. The contactors take a chunk of space as well as the power outlets. I think you might be better off with a larger box.

I agree with P-J. It could work, but it would be a very tight squeeze. If you are doing 120v it would be a little easier.

 

[CidahMastah]

I agree too. I have the auber box and I have 2 contactors, two 240 plugs and 1 120V plug and it is doable but tight:

rectangles are the contactors;
circles are the outlets;
rounded rectangle is the SSR;

I also had to add a fan to the side to cool the SSR (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electric-burners-any-builders-out-there-228720/index38.html). It works, but it is a bit crowded - easy to store away from the brewing though. If I could pick again I would have grabbed a bigger box (though I love how my fan blows in on the SSR and it vents out the back).

 

[HHP]

Thanks, yeah I guess I'll get a bigger enclosure, which will allow for future expansion if I so choose, and much cleaner wiring.

I have a few more questions, and I will probably have more later.

I assume the LED lit switches and lights look better than the incandescent ones, but how much better? Is it worth the increase in price?

I am thinking about using a 5A breaker instead of a 10A for the pumps, any problems with that? I am also only going to have one pump, and I'm going to use the second 120v outlet as aux power. This way I wont be able to overload the total power available...

Are C curve breakers 'fast blow' enough?

Edit:

One more: should I put 25A breakers on the elements?

I think thats it for now, I'll probably have some more Q's later...