Poor hops utilization with hop-spider?

[Homergah]

One thing that seems to have been overlooked in all this is the fact that when you limit the transfer of hop material to fermentor, you are going to limit the very hop character you are trying to impart to your beer. Your hop spider/bag/strainer is not only limiting hop character by limiting surface exposures to more wort, it's limiting it by taking it out of where it needs to be, in your beer.

 

[SEndorf]

At some point I'm going to buy one of these:

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/hop-stopper

and see how it does. Easy to see how if you're whirlpooling a lot of that stuff would collect in the middle depression leaving mostly clear wort to be pulled out of the boil kettle.

I hope you do! And post the results.
I see that this hop stopper is version 2.
Version 1 (which I purchased) was a complete disaster.
How are the reviews so far on this one?

 

[Dgallo]

How are u not extracting those same compounds if the pellets are free in the boil

You are extracting them loose but will extraction will increase as pressure increases.

Chlorophyll is insoluble in water-based solvents, are you sure about this?

To my understanding, though not soluble and creating an actual bound, it can be extracted through heat and pressure and will make its way into fermenter as a non-harmonious solution. When alcohol is created during fermentation, it can then be disolved we’re it can be oxidized and create off flavors.

 

[day_trippr]

I also have a V1 hop stopper. Used once, utter fail: it loaded up so badly with free swimming pellet mush that half the wort was still in the kettle when I finally showed mercy on the stalled pump and shut it down.

My concern with the much larger/different geometry V2: while it might work great under an electric element, setting that large an area on the kettle bottom might lead to scorching on a gas rig. I once tried setting my 6"x24" ss spider on the bottom of the BK for most of the boil only to find a matching scorched area...

Cheers!

 

[IBRUTOO]

Youre also squeezing excess chlorophyll and polyphenols into you beer, which both increase your risk of oxidation on highly hopped beers. Especially if your doing it with dryhoping because your splashing as well allowing more disolved oxygen to enter your beer. This is very bad practice for beer longevity

I very much like my "very bad practice" but that's the best part of home brewing, make what you like how you want! Just sharing my perspective for those that have not tried it. Haven't had an oxidation issue or change relative to my old process.

 

[SEndorf]

I also have a V1 hop stopper. Used once, utter fail: it loaded up so badly with free swimming pellet mush that half the wort was still in the kettle when I finally showed mercy on the stalled pump and shut it down.

My exact same experience, except I'm too stubborn (this item wasn't cheap) that I tried it several times before chucking it into the dead bin and purchased a fine mesh hop spider from Utah Biodiesel Supply.
https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com...MIy4eCnJnx4AIVDYdpCh0pHgUqEAMYASAAEgJf5_D_BwE

This has worked beautifully, but I did increase my hops due to the constricted space. My inexact science is as follows:
Bittering (no increase) / Flavoring +10% / Late Additions +25%

My concern with the much larger/different geometry V2: while it might work great under an electric element, setting that large an area on the kettle bottom might lead to scorching on a gas rig. I once tried setting my 6"x24" ss spider on the bottom of the BK for most of the boil only to find a matching scorched area...

Agreed. This appears to be designed for under an electric element. I would think gas would be a problem.

 

[Beer666]

This is a very interesting topic. I have not noticed any difference since switching to bags but i don't often make ultra hoppy beers. The bags i use are 30cm x 40cm with at most 100g of hops in them. I was surprised to hear people don't recommend them. At some point i will try again without once i upgrade my kit. I look at hop spiders but now glad i didn't buy one. You would probably need one the size of a grain basket to work properly.

 

[dilbone]

My hop spider and bag are home made. The bag is pretty large at 20"x14" so I feel like I've got quite a lot of surface area available. The only problem I have had was this last beer I brewed where I used 12oz total of my home grown cascade hops and that bag was packed...
The beer is really good but not nearly as hoppy as the same beer I brewed with only 9oz of the same whole leaf hops.

I would agree with the idea that the bag can inhibit hop utilization, but in my experience only if the bag is packed too tightly for its size. I don't feel like I've ever had an issue with pellets in a bag that size.

 

[Stand]

What I think I might do is just drop my hop spider in the giant funnel I have for my carboys and filter on the way to the fermenter.

What I would really want is some sort of SS filter that I can use in-line on the way out, but i bet that would be stupid expensive and probably not work as well as the double sieve suggested earlier.

In-line multistage might but be neat though.

Hell, maybe shove some copper pot scrubbers in an SS tube and see what happens.

 

[McKnuckle]

The sieve is so easy to use... just drain wort over it into a bucket first, then dump into your actual fermenter (if different than the bucket). It benefits from the aeration anyway. The bucket only needs a hot water rinse, so barely any more cleaning required.

 

[Stand]

@McKnuckle that is undoubtedly a better solution except that I HAVE a hop spider and I want to try that first.

I am sure the strainer would fit right into my funnel and make it even easier.

 

[McKnuckle]

Makes sense. Go for it! If it's the canister kind that hooks onto a rim, just hang it on your bucket and put the hose in there. It will totally do the job. I don't use mine only because it's hard to clean - the particles don't flush out so easily.

 

[isomerization]

You are extracting them loose but will extraction will increase as pressure increases.

To my understanding, though not soluble and creating an actual bound, it can be extracted through heat and pressure and will make its way into fermenter as a non-harmonious solution. When alcohol is created during fermentation, it can then be disolved we’re it can be oxidized and create off flavors.

This sounds like a stretch, a sciencey-sounding stretch at least haha.

Any links to support? Not trying to be an a-hole, just didn’t turn up much myself after an admittedly short round of google-fu.

 

[murphyslaw]

I've got a Grainfather and I use a hop spider on anything with a lot of hops because the pump filter tends to clog and transfers take forever. I recirculate the wort through the hop spider during the hop stand, or even while sanitizing the CFC and my beers come out plenty hoppy. I also stir the hops up in the spider every so often.

I wish I didn't have to use the spider and could just go commando but I can't stand the transfer taking 30+ minutes into the carboy.

This is exactly what I do--pump return into the hop spider and occassionally stir. My 5 gallon paint strainer bag also reaches to the bottom of the kettle and is less restrictive than a smaller bag.

I squeeze the bag when it cools, too.

 

[RichardM]

If you drain your kettle directly from its ball valve after chilling, as opposed to using a CFC or plate chiller, then just capture the hop debris on the way to the fermenter. After trying several solutions, I settled on a sieve (used for making honey) that works really well: Mann Lake HH440 Stainless Steel Double Sieve

The top layer is 840 microns, and the lower is 420 microns.

I brew 2.5-3 gallon batches so here's an average example; i.e. not a ton of hops, but all of them stopped nicely. And it does not clog like finer mesh filters always seem to do. I place this over a bucket and drain into that first, then pour the wort into the fermenter.

View attachment 616204

I think this method makes sense to me. How hard is the sieve to clean? Also is there a reason you drain into a bucket first rather than directly from kettle to fermentor with the sieve over the fermentor?
Thanks

 

[McKnuckle]

@RichardM I usually ferment in a Cornelius keg, which of course has a small opening. That's why I drain to a bucket first.

I also sometimes ferment in a stainless bucket, in which case I'm good to go on the first pass.

The sieve is easy to clean - just spray it out in the sink. A lot of my hop detritus stays in the kettle, so it's not usually a massive amount that makes it to the sieve.

 

[RichardM]

Ah, thanks.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Yeah, same conclusion. I tried to position the spider so that it would sit above the heating element so the rising boil would pass through the spider, roiling the hops and overcoming the surface-area issue, and while that seemed to work somewhat, the only seeming solution to this is to increase the amount of hops in the spider. I'm sure there's a diminishing return to that strategy as well.

I just made mine fit the id of my kettle. Mine was only 8” and I had this issue.

 

[pym99]

I've got a Grainfather and I use a hop spider on anything with a lot of hops because the pump filter tends to clog and transfers take forever. I recirculate the wort through the hop spider during the hop stand, or even while sanitizing the CFC and my beers come out plenty hoppy. I also stir the hops up in the spider every so often.

I use the official Grainfather hop spider, which is an 800 micron mesh as opposed to the 200-400 micron mesh of most other hop spiders. That's a MUCH larger opening which allows for far greater circulation--at least twice if not quadruple the area open of most hop spiders--while still containing the bulk of the hop material, even for pellet hops.

During the boil, I stir the hops inside the spider at least every 10 minutes or so. During the hop stand, I put the recirculation pump hose into the hop spider. Before I got the Grainfather hop spider, I used the cheap muslin bags from my LHBS to contain each hop addition due to the pump clogging issue. I haven't noticed any decrease in utilization since switching from the bags to the spider.

I am sure there is slightly less utilization than putting the hops in loose, but I find the far more difficult thing in trying to dial in my targeted IBUs is estimating how much my open 1 lb bags of hops have lost potency over the course of a few months. I am on too tight of a budget to buy small bags of hops for each brew.

 

[TheHopfather]

I use the official Grainfather hop spider, which is an 800 micron mesh as opposed to the 200-400 micron mesh of most other hop spiders. That's a MUCH larger opening which allows for far greater circulation--at least twice if not quadruple the area open of most hop spiders--while still containing the bulk of the hop material, even for pellet hops.

During the boil, I stir the hops inside the spider at least every 10 minutes or so. During the hop stand, I put the recirculation pump hose into the hop spider. Before I got the Grainfather hop spider, I used the cheap muslin bags from my LHBS to contain each hop addition due to the pump clogging issue. I haven't noticed any decrease in utilization since switching from the bags to the spider.

I am sure there is slightly less utilization than putting the hops in loose, but I find the far more difficult thing in trying to dial in my targeted IBUs is estimating how much my open 1 lb bags of hops have lost potency over the course of a few months. I am on too tight of a budget to buy small bags of hops for each brew.

I've got the same spider as you and find it works well. My beers turn out nice and hoppy, no complaints there. The worst part about using it is cleaning it afterwards really. You stir your hops up more often than me but otherwise we are using very similar processes.

As for the open hops problem you might want to look into a vacuum sealer. I'll take my 1lbs hop bag and make a bunch of smaller 2oz bags for storage. They seem to last for a long time doing it that way.

 

[isomerization]

I've got the same spider as you and find it works well. My beers turn out nice and hoppy, no complaints there. The worst part about using it is cleaning it afterwards really. You stir your hops up more often than me but otherwise we are using very similar processes.

As for the open hops problem you might want to look into a vacuum sealer. I'll take my 1lbs hop bag and make a bunch of smaller 2oz bags for storage. They seem to last for a long time doing it that way.

+1 on vacuum sealing hops. I just make a large bag and reseal after use, FYI.

 

[Mike123]

I use the official Grainfather hop spider, which is an 800 micron mesh as opposed to the 200-400 micron mesh of most other hop spiders. That's a MUCH larger opening which allows for far greater circulation--at least twice if not quadruple the area open of most hop spiders--while still containing the bulk of the hop material, even for pellet hops.

During the boil, I stir the hops inside the spider at least every 10 minutes or so. During the hop stand, I put the recirculation pump hose into the hop spider. Before I got the Grainfather hop spider, I used the cheap muslin bags from my LHBS to contain each hop addition due to the pump clogging issue. I haven't noticed any decrease in utilization since switching from the bags to the spider.

I am sure there is slightly less utilization than putting the hops in loose, but I find the far more difficult thing in trying to dial in my targeted IBUs is estimating how much my open 1 lb bags of hops have lost potency over the course of a few months. I am on too tight of a budget to buy small bags of hops for each brew.

Hi and thanks for your post/reply. I have a large (12" diameter x 15" high) 800 micron mesh basket that I plan to use to contain pellet hops during my boil and hop stand. My system plumbing (the hoses) are 3/8" ID at the smallest points. I will run my pump to recirculate as you do. (I will also filter out hop material before using my plate chiller).

Could you help me with a few questions? 1)can you tell any difference in hop utilization compared to free-ranging, 2) what is the biggest hop load you have done, 3)have you had any problem with pump/hoses clogging for large hop loads, and 4)does the wort boil inside the spider? Thanks and cheers!

 

[Stand]

800 micron mesh is pretty wide open. How well does that contain the pellets? You getting a lot of particles coming through?

I switched back to a hop-spider after trying a few things. Trick I learned with my hop spider is that if it starts to clog you can clear the clogs really easily by just moving it briskly up and down in the kettle a few times and then lifting it out. It really gets bad when I put whirlflock in.

On hop utilization I can't say I've never noticed a difference, and I use a 200 micron basket. What I CAN say is that I have never detected a problem. I liked the beer I was making before with loose hops, and I like the same beer made with the hop spider. The difference is that I prefer the hop spider because the process is less complicated.

Here is the best (although not definitive) answer: http://brulosophy.com/2019/09/16/ke...pider-vs-loose-additions-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Dog House Brew]

I also have a V1 hop stopper. Used once, utter fail: it loaded up so badly with free swimming pellet mush that half the wort was still in the kettle when I finally showed mercy on the stalled pump and shut it down.

My concern with the much larger/different geometry V2: while it might work great under an electric element, setting that large an area on the kettle bottom might lead to scorching on a gas rig. I once tried setting my 6"x24" ss spider on the bottom of the BK for most of the boil only to find a matching scorched area...

Cheers!

Could it be the tri-axle dump load of hops you uses? I almost bought one of those years back.

 

[McKnuckle]

^ I agree with @Stand . There may be some difference, but as I'm not brewing two beers back to back with hop containment being the sole variable, I can't say. It all tastes good, and as expected, with no loss of bitterness or flavor. And it produces cleaner wort with no effort.

Besides, a 12"x15" hop container is huge! That's effectively like having them float freely in the boil. Most canisters are much narrower in diameter.

 

[Dog House Brew]

IMO if your going to use a spider, it needs to be the full diameter of the kettle. If not, the boil “bubbles” just move to the path of least resistance. I use a CFC, so those using an IM chiller, this could cause an issue. I used containment with dry 1 time. That beer was a total dud and lesson learned. Only loose pitch on dry for me.

 

[dochawk]

I use a plastic screen bag, sold sometime in the past as a liner for a 5 or 6 gallon bucket. I toss whole hop flowers in it into a 15 gallon boil, and let it float. Stir from time to time.

 

[Mike123]

^

Besides, a 12"x15" hop container is huge! That's effectively like having them float freely in the boil. Most canisters are much narrower in diameter.

The reason my hop container is so large is that it is also my grain basket. My plan is to try and use this same basket for both purposes, and yes the idea was it is like having the hops float freely in the boil, except that some hop trub is contained in the basket. I have not tried this yet, so we will see. I'll be back with a report on how this worked out.

 

[Yesfan]

I also use a hop spider. I've wondered if I just need a wider spider to get better hop extraction. My kettle is about 16" in diameter while my spider has a 6" diameter. A couple of times I didn't use the spider, it seemed my hoppier beers tasted better. The bad thing about that was my plate chiller would clog, even after I whirlpooled.

I have a false bottom for one of my kettles. I used it once which had decent results if I remember correctly. Spike (my kettles and fb) has recommended to me not to use their false bottom that way. I don't understand why that would matter, but least to say I've taken their advice.

So, I'm thinking of...

A: buy a false bottom that can sit flat on my Spike kettle (looking at NorCal for that) or getting a much wider "spider" like the mesh BIAB basket from Utah Diesel etc. This would keep my plate chiller from getting clogged.


B: Ditch the spider AND the plate chiller and go the Aussie route....no chill. I'm leaning more and more on using my kegs as fermenters if my Spike conical/flex are full. I have three hop strainers I use for keg hopping that could probably double as a trub filter when pouring the hot wort into the corny keg.

Obviously, I'll try B first since I already have everything I need.

 

[eric19312]

I’m using this 400 micron filter and am very satisfied. My typical hop schedule is 2 oz at 60, 2 oz at 5, 9 oz in whirlpool... I stir with large plastic spoon and lift the filter out of the wort every 5 min or so during the whirlpool. I notice quite a bit of the hop material is small enough to get through the filter. At end I lift the filter out of the wort, let it drain into kettle then sort of flip the mass of hops up and down in the filter to get achieve a light squeeze. I suppose I might be squeezing in some chlorophyll but beer is still good and I’m happy.

https://www.homebrewing.org/400-Micron-Stainless-Hop-Filter-with-Adjustable-Hook--6-x-14_p_7116.html

 

[Mike123]

I also use a hop spider. I've wondered if I just need a wider spider to get better hop extraction. My kettle is about 16" in diameter while my spider has a 6" diameter. A couple of times I didn't use the spider, it seemed my hoppier beers tasted better. The bad thing about that was my plate chiller would clog, even after I whirlpooled.

I have a false bottom for one of my kettles. I used it once which had decent results if I remember correctly. Spike (my kettles and fb) has recommended to me not to use their false bottom that way. I don't understand why that would matter, but least to say I've taken their advice.

So, I'm thinking of...

A: buy a false bottom that can sit flat on my Spike kettle (looking at NorCal for that) or getting a much wider "spider" like the mesh BIAB basket from Utah Diesel etc. This would keep my plate chiller from getting clogged.


B: Ditch the spider AND the plate chiller and go the Aussie route....no chill. I'm leaning more and more on using my kegs as fermenters if my Spike conical/flex are full. I have three hop strainers I use for keg hopping that could probably double as a trub filter when pouring the hot wort into the corny keg.

Obviously, I'll try B first since I already have everything I need.

Assuming we are talking about hop pellets......….I'm personally convinced that anything but free-range (hops directly in the wort) results in reduced hop utilization, of varying degrees depending on your setup. I think if you must use a spider then go as large as possible given your budget. Bigger spider, better hop utilization. In my case I am currently using NO spider. I recirculate at the end of the boil, and catch the hop trub at the return to my Keggle with a 400 micron basket. Then I route my wort to my plate chiller. So far this has worked like a charm, no problem clogging my pump or plumbing (3/8" ID) during the recirculation, and no clogging of the plate chiller. BTW, I have a false bottom made by NorCal. I'll post it on the For Sale forum in a few minutes. I've used it in the past for whole leaf hops and it works great. I don't know about the no chill method, seems hop utilization would suffer, but that is just my opinion.

 

[skarz]

Has anyone else on here noticed their beers coming out drastically less bitter than the estimated IBU would predict when using a hop-spider?

Last handful of brews I've been using a morebeer 200um hop spider to prevent plate-chiller clogging. All of them have turned out way less hoppy than the recipe would indicate. I do try to make sure the basket is as submerged as possible, and stir it around a bit with a spatula. Does anyone else have this issue?

Are you recirculating through the hop spider?

 

[wepeeler]

Has anyone else on here noticed their beers coming out drastically less bitter than the estimated IBU would predict when using a hop-spider?

Last handful of brews I've been using a morebeer 200um hop spider to prevent plate-chiller clogging. All of them have turned out way less hoppy than the recipe would indicate. I do try to make sure the basket is as submerged as possible, and stir it around a bit with a spatula. Does anyone else have this issue?

I had the same one. Used it for a Pilsner since I wanted none of the hop material in the fermenter. Kept getting clogged with break material. Tossed it in the trash after 1 use.

 

[day_trippr]

Are you recirculating through the hop spider?

I tried doing that. Spider quickly clogged up...

Cheers!