Poor hops utilization with hop-spider?

[Jag75]

Hopfather , same issue with the Gf pump getting clogged .

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

This last dry hop in the wcipa, I crushed all the hops with a sanitized spoon. I'm going to brew a starter beer for Heady Topper. I'll do that with the boil/WP hops to see if any higher utilization. It'll still be a mess tho...

 

[Jag75]

@isomerization & @Dgallo , thanks for the links . That Scott Janis link is a ton of info.

 

[WestMichBrewer]

Glad to read the cheapest/simplest method is the best again...just throw the hops in as I've always done.

 

[olotti]

I I’ve my hip spider but I use a homemade one with the 5 gal paint strainer bags so idk if this makes a huge difference but in the boil that bag moves around very freely and then after I squeeze the heck out of it to get out all the hoppy goodness. Whirlpool hops are added into the same bag and I just stir the bag every 10 min or so to get the hops moving around in the wort, yesterday’s beer there was an actual oily sheen on top of the wort so it appears that al the good stuff is getting extracted. Maybe the ss ones are worse because their a fixed piece of equipment they don’t flow and float around like the bags do.

 

[IBRUTOO]

I squeeze my hop spider bag and seem to get same level if not more hop flavor than commando...

 

[Dgallo]

I squeeze my hop spider bag and seem to get same level if not more hop flavor than commando...

Youre also squeezing excess chlorophyll and polyphenols into you beer, which both increase your risk of oxidation on highly hopped beers. Especially if your doing it with dryhoping because your splashing as well allowing more disolved oxygen to enter your beer. This is very bad practice for beer longevity

 

[Cantina De Jefe]

If you drain your kettle directly from its ball valve after chilling, as opposed to using a CFC or plate chiller, then just capture the hop debris on the way to the fermenter. After trying several solutions, I settled on a sieve (used for making honey) that works really well: Mann Lake HH440 Stainless Steel Double Sieve

The top layer is 840 microns, and the lower is 420 microns.

I brew 2.5-3 gallon batches so here's an average example; i.e. not a ton of hops, but all of them stopped nicely. And it does not clog like finer mesh filters always seem to do. I place this over a bucket and drain into that first, then pour the wort into the fermenter.

View attachment 616204

I have a similar arrangement. False bottom with dip tube in the boil kettle and a secondary screen around the dip tube. I think it almost works too well. If i use more than 6 oz of pellets with a whirfloc in 11 gallon batch i have to be careful not to recirculate too much or it will get stuck. I generally try to use only whole hops and recirculuate using my plate chiller. It works well. Cool down is 15-20 minutes and cold break/hop capture is got to be high 90%. Never clogged my plate chiller once. Not even 1 hop leaf ever in the chiller. Beers come out much more clear too.

 

[olotti]

Youre also squeezing excess chlorophyll and polyphenols into you beer, which both increase your risk of oxidation on highly hopped beers. Especially if your doing it with dryhoping because your splashing as well allowing more disolved oxygen to enter your beer. This is very bad practice for beer longevity

How are u not extracting those same compounds if the pellets are free in the boil

 

[isomerization]

Youre also squeezing excess chlorophyll and polyphenols into you beer, which both increase your risk of oxidation on highly hopped beers. Especially if your doing it with dryhoping because your splashing as well allowing more disolved oxygen to enter your beer. This is very bad practice for beer longevity

Chlorophyll is insoluble in water-based solvents, are you sure about this?

 

[Homergah]

One thing that seems to have been overlooked in all this is the fact that when you limit the transfer of hop material to fermentor, you are going to limit the very hop character you are trying to impart to your beer. Your hop spider/bag/strainer is not only limiting hop character by limiting surface exposures to more wort, it's limiting it by taking it out of where it needs to be, in your beer.

 

[SEndorf]

At some point I'm going to buy one of these:

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/hop-stopper

and see how it does. Easy to see how if you're whirlpooling a lot of that stuff would collect in the middle depression leaving mostly clear wort to be pulled out of the boil kettle.

I hope you do! And post the results.
I see that this hop stopper is version 2.
Version 1 (which I purchased) was a complete disaster.
How are the reviews so far on this one?

 

[Dgallo]

How are u not extracting those same compounds if the pellets are free in the boil

You are extracting them loose but will extraction will increase as pressure increases.

Chlorophyll is insoluble in water-based solvents, are you sure about this?

To my understanding, though not soluble and creating an actual bound, it can be extracted through heat and pressure and will make its way into fermenter as a non-harmonious solution. When alcohol is created during fermentation, it can then be disolved we’re it can be oxidized and create off flavors.

 

[day_trippr]

I also have a V1 hop stopper. Used once, utter fail: it loaded up so badly with free swimming pellet mush that half the wort was still in the kettle when I finally showed mercy on the stalled pump and shut it down.

My concern with the much larger/different geometry V2: while it might work great under an electric element, setting that large an area on the kettle bottom might lead to scorching on a gas rig. I once tried setting my 6"x24" ss spider on the bottom of the BK for most of the boil only to find a matching scorched area...

Cheers!

 

[IBRUTOO]

Youre also squeezing excess chlorophyll and polyphenols into you beer, which both increase your risk of oxidation on highly hopped beers. Especially if your doing it with dryhoping because your splashing as well allowing more disolved oxygen to enter your beer. This is very bad practice for beer longevity

I very much like my "very bad practice" but that's the best part of home brewing, make what you like how you want! Just sharing my perspective for those that have not tried it. Haven't had an oxidation issue or change relative to my old process.

 

[SEndorf]

I also have a V1 hop stopper. Used once, utter fail: it loaded up so badly with free swimming pellet mush that half the wort was still in the kettle when I finally showed mercy on the stalled pump and shut it down.

My exact same experience, except I'm too stubborn (this item wasn't cheap) that I tried it several times before chucking it into the dead bin and purchased a fine mesh hop spider from Utah Biodiesel Supply.
https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com...MIy4eCnJnx4AIVDYdpCh0pHgUqEAMYASAAEgJf5_D_BwE

This has worked beautifully, but I did increase my hops due to the constricted space. My inexact science is as follows:
Bittering (no increase) / Flavoring +10% / Late Additions +25%

My concern with the much larger/different geometry V2: while it might work great under an electric element, setting that large an area on the kettle bottom might lead to scorching on a gas rig. I once tried setting my 6"x24" ss spider on the bottom of the BK for most of the boil only to find a matching scorched area...

Agreed. This appears to be designed for under an electric element. I would think gas would be a problem.

 

[Beer666]

This is a very interesting topic. I have not noticed any difference since switching to bags but i don't often make ultra hoppy beers. The bags i use are 30cm x 40cm with at most 100g of hops in them. I was surprised to hear people don't recommend them. At some point i will try again without once i upgrade my kit. I look at hop spiders but now glad i didn't buy one. You would probably need one the size of a grain basket to work properly.

 

[dilbone]

My hop spider and bag are home made. The bag is pretty large at 20"x14" so I feel like I've got quite a lot of surface area available. The only problem I have had was this last beer I brewed where I used 12oz total of my home grown cascade hops and that bag was packed...
The beer is really good but not nearly as hoppy as the same beer I brewed with only 9oz of the same whole leaf hops.

I would agree with the idea that the bag can inhibit hop utilization, but in my experience only if the bag is packed too tightly for its size. I don't feel like I've ever had an issue with pellets in a bag that size.

 

[Stand]

What I think I might do is just drop my hop spider in the giant funnel I have for my carboys and filter on the way to the fermenter.

What I would really want is some sort of SS filter that I can use in-line on the way out, but i bet that would be stupid expensive and probably not work as well as the double sieve suggested earlier.

In-line multistage might but be neat though.

Hell, maybe shove some copper pot scrubbers in an SS tube and see what happens.

 

[McKnuckle]

The sieve is so easy to use... just drain wort over it into a bucket first, then dump into your actual fermenter (if different than the bucket). It benefits from the aeration anyway. The bucket only needs a hot water rinse, so barely any more cleaning required.

 

[Stand]

@McKnuckle that is undoubtedly a better solution except that I HAVE a hop spider and I want to try that first.

I am sure the strainer would fit right into my funnel and make it even easier.

 

[McKnuckle]

Makes sense. Go for it! If it's the canister kind that hooks onto a rim, just hang it on your bucket and put the hose in there. It will totally do the job. I don't use mine only because it's hard to clean - the particles don't flush out so easily.

 

[isomerization]

You are extracting them loose but will extraction will increase as pressure increases.

To my understanding, though not soluble and creating an actual bound, it can be extracted through heat and pressure and will make its way into fermenter as a non-harmonious solution. When alcohol is created during fermentation, it can then be disolved we’re it can be oxidized and create off flavors.

This sounds like a stretch, a sciencey-sounding stretch at least haha.

Any links to support? Not trying to be an a-hole, just didn’t turn up much myself after an admittedly short round of google-fu.

 

[murphyslaw]

I've got a Grainfather and I use a hop spider on anything with a lot of hops because the pump filter tends to clog and transfers take forever. I recirculate the wort through the hop spider during the hop stand, or even while sanitizing the CFC and my beers come out plenty hoppy. I also stir the hops up in the spider every so often.

I wish I didn't have to use the spider and could just go commando but I can't stand the transfer taking 30+ minutes into the carboy.

This is exactly what I do--pump return into the hop spider and occassionally stir. My 5 gallon paint strainer bag also reaches to the bottom of the kettle and is less restrictive than a smaller bag.

I squeeze the bag when it cools, too.

 

[RichardM]

If you drain your kettle directly from its ball valve after chilling, as opposed to using a CFC or plate chiller, then just capture the hop debris on the way to the fermenter. After trying several solutions, I settled on a sieve (used for making honey) that works really well: Mann Lake HH440 Stainless Steel Double Sieve

The top layer is 840 microns, and the lower is 420 microns.

I brew 2.5-3 gallon batches so here's an average example; i.e. not a ton of hops, but all of them stopped nicely. And it does not clog like finer mesh filters always seem to do. I place this over a bucket and drain into that first, then pour the wort into the fermenter.

View attachment 616204

I think this method makes sense to me. How hard is the sieve to clean? Also is there a reason you drain into a bucket first rather than directly from kettle to fermentor with the sieve over the fermentor?
Thanks

 

[McKnuckle]

@RichardM I usually ferment in a Cornelius keg, which of course has a small opening. That's why I drain to a bucket first.

I also sometimes ferment in a stainless bucket, in which case I'm good to go on the first pass.

The sieve is easy to clean - just spray it out in the sink. A lot of my hop detritus stays in the kettle, so it's not usually a massive amount that makes it to the sieve.

 

[RichardM]

Ah, thanks.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Yeah, same conclusion. I tried to position the spider so that it would sit above the heating element so the rising boil would pass through the spider, roiling the hops and overcoming the surface-area issue, and while that seemed to work somewhat, the only seeming solution to this is to increase the amount of hops in the spider. I'm sure there's a diminishing return to that strategy as well.

I just made mine fit the id of my kettle. Mine was only 8” and I had this issue.

 

[pym99]

I've got a Grainfather and I use a hop spider on anything with a lot of hops because the pump filter tends to clog and transfers take forever. I recirculate the wort through the hop spider during the hop stand, or even while sanitizing the CFC and my beers come out plenty hoppy. I also stir the hops up in the spider every so often.

I use the official Grainfather hop spider, which is an 800 micron mesh as opposed to the 200-400 micron mesh of most other hop spiders. That's a MUCH larger opening which allows for far greater circulation--at least twice if not quadruple the area open of most hop spiders--while still containing the bulk of the hop material, even for pellet hops.

During the boil, I stir the hops inside the spider at least every 10 minutes or so. During the hop stand, I put the recirculation pump hose into the hop spider. Before I got the Grainfather hop spider, I used the cheap muslin bags from my LHBS to contain each hop addition due to the pump clogging issue. I haven't noticed any decrease in utilization since switching from the bags to the spider.

I am sure there is slightly less utilization than putting the hops in loose, but I find the far more difficult thing in trying to dial in my targeted IBUs is estimating how much my open 1 lb bags of hops have lost potency over the course of a few months. I am on too tight of a budget to buy small bags of hops for each brew.

 

[TheHopfather]

I use the official Grainfather hop spider, which is an 800 micron mesh as opposed to the 200-400 micron mesh of most other hop spiders. That's a MUCH larger opening which allows for far greater circulation--at least twice if not quadruple the area open of most hop spiders--while still containing the bulk of the hop material, even for pellet hops.

During the boil, I stir the hops inside the spider at least every 10 minutes or so. During the hop stand, I put the recirculation pump hose into the hop spider. Before I got the Grainfather hop spider, I used the cheap muslin bags from my LHBS to contain each hop addition due to the pump clogging issue. I haven't noticed any decrease in utilization since switching from the bags to the spider.

I am sure there is slightly less utilization than putting the hops in loose, but I find the far more difficult thing in trying to dial in my targeted IBUs is estimating how much my open 1 lb bags of hops have lost potency over the course of a few months. I am on too tight of a budget to buy small bags of hops for each brew.

I've got the same spider as you and find it works well. My beers turn out nice and hoppy, no complaints there. The worst part about using it is cleaning it afterwards really. You stir your hops up more often than me but otherwise we are using very similar processes.

As for the open hops problem you might want to look into a vacuum sealer. I'll take my 1lbs hop bag and make a bunch of smaller 2oz bags for storage. They seem to last for a long time doing it that way.