Poll: How many "dead on arrival" yeast vials have you had?

[scotched]

I had my first dead White Labs yeast vial today (WLP300). Pretty bummed. After 24hrs I have no gas activity, no visual signs, and no yeast on the bottom. I knew something was wrong when the vial opened without a sound I had to pitch S33 in my faux-Hef.

I'd like to get an idea of how common this is for average brewers.

 

[JeepDiver]

24 hours isn't real long to wait for visual signs. Almost all of the vials I have opened have hissed when I open them after reaching room temp.

Betting you re-pitched too early.

 

[samc]

DOA = Zero on vials, smack packs and dry packets.

Only dead yeast I've ever had was an old jar of bread yeast that had been in the fridge opened for several years.

 

[Revvy]

Never had dead yeast, don't believe in dead yeast, just impatient brewers.

 

[Hammy71]

Never, of coarse I always buy my yeast from my local shop during the summer, even if I ordered everything else on line.

 

[bob1852]

Never had dead yeast, don't believe in dead yeast, just impatient brewers.

Tell that to the WLP029 that sat in a warehouse in ~115*F in Phoenix for 5+ days before getting delivered to me (not counting the travel time to Phoenix or the travel time from Phoenix to me).

Made a starter and let it go for 4 days. No activity at all (actually took a gravity reading of the starter on day 5 ). Pitched anyways. 5 days later no change in gravity in the wort....

 

[scotched]

24 hours isn't real long to wait for visual signs. Almost all of the vials I have opened have hissed when I open them after reaching room temp.

Betting you re-pitched too early.

Thing is, I should at least have signs of co2 production. Example: I cap and shake my starter, then open it up 15mins or so later - there is zero pressure released. The previous 5 vials I used showed signs of co2 within the first 12hours.

I honestly hope that I'm wrong and you're right.

Should I just pitch the start on top of the s33?

 

[Paymygasbill77]

My friend revived an 18 month old washed yeast jar in a starter and I'm sure White labs and Wyeast can do a better job than him.

 

[scotched]

Should I throw my failed-starter in my batch?

 

[indigi]

No, just let it go now. Brew again next weekend and pitch your starter. You'll have a little comparison experiment on your hands, at least.

 

[lumpher]

i've had 2 failed wlp300's (out of 3 i've bought ever, and yes, starter, right temp, wait, take readings, etc). that's the reason i switched to dry wb-06

 

[scotched]

2 failed wlp300's? If I got 2 failed wlp300's that would be interesting.

Either way, I'll wait it out. Thanks.

 

[scotched]

UPDATE:

I'm starting to see signs! I'm getting a small layer of foam on top there is a significant growth in layer of yeast sediment on the bottom.

I also got a nice puff of CO2 when I stuck my head in my starter chamber, and went dizzy for a second. That was a first. Things are definitely happening in yeastville

the reverend was right (about my yeast)!

 

[nostalgia]

don't believe in dead yeast, just impatient brewers.

This. Also, t-shirt.

-Joe

 

[brewfreeordie]

12 hours into a starter and nothing so far. Irish Ale wlp004 bought from local brew shop. When I opened the vial it hissed all over the place, figured I was good. Vial was 3.5 months old so I'm leery about this, but seeing it's my first liquid yeast try I've got nothing to compare it to.

Looks like no brewing today. I'll let this one ferment out, then do another starter on Wed-Thurs for the weekend? Nutz.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

My first Wyeast pack was dead. Sucks.

 

[Revvy]

12 hours into a starter and nothing so far. Irish Ale wlp004 bought from local brew shop. When I opened the vial it hissed all over the place, figured I was good. Vial was 3.5 months old so I'm leery about this, but seeing it's my first liquid yeast try I've got nothing to compare it to.

Looks like no brewing today. I'll let this one ferment out, then do another starter on Wed-Thurs for the weekend? Nutz.

3.5 months is nothing. People use year or more old yeast all the time, with starters with no issues.

Many new brewers wouldn't know if their yeast is dead or alive if it bit them in the face, even with making starter. They often expect a lot of activity a lot of bells and whistles with their starters, when that's usually not the case.

Read THIS about what is considered "activity" or not in a starter.

If you're "gushed" when you opened it, more than likely it is fine...it "gushed" because while the yeast was in the tubes it was farting co2. And dead yeast usually don't fart.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

3.5 months is nothing. People use year or more old yeast all the time, with starters with no issues.

Many new brewers wouldn't know if their yeast is dead or alive if it bit them in the face, even with making starter. They often expect a lot of activity a lot of bells and whistles with their starters, when that's usually not the case.

Read THIS about what is considered "activity" or not in a starter.

If you're "gushed" when you opened it, more than likely it is fine...it "gushed" because while the yeast was in the tubes it was farting co2. And dead yeast usually don't fart.

Thanks for your feedback. But with close to 40hrs and no change in gravity, no activity, I decided to re pitch. I am away from my house all day today and don't want to risk losing a batch. If stunted fermentation times are normal for Wyeast I would rather not bother. The last 15 batches I have done all had activity and gravity change within 48hrs. I couldn't risk it. I wouldn't say I am super experienced with fermentation, but I can certainly tell when something isn't right. I wouldn't say I am 'inexperienced' either, I just can't afford to roll the dice. 48hrs with no change is enough for me to throw in the towel and re pitch.

Worst case I have over pitched and there will be a little more yeast on the bottom. I plan to rack to secondary for hopping in 7 days anyhow. We'll see how this turns out.

 

[phenry]

I think the stipulation of "did you make a starter first?" should be added before people claim their yeast was dead. The only time I've ever had a starter fail was one or two attempts at culturing yeast from bottles, but that's completely different than using a vial/smack pack (especially when it's a year old bottle of a 7.2% saison).

Right now I have a 4 month old smack pack of 3724 on my stir plate, and even at 70*F it started showing signs of life within 24 hours. If you aren't going to bother making a starter for liquid yeast, why even bother aerating your wort, sanitizing everything, or even brewing at all? Unless you're brewing a very low gravity beer (think >1.040) and have an extremely fresh pack of yeast, you're already underpitching. Healthy yeast is happy yeast, and happy yeast makes good beer.

 

[HBngNOK]

Don't know. I had a smack-pack of Wyeast delivered last year, in the heat of one of the hottest Oklahoma summers on record. I smacked it, but it didn't swell. If Ida known then what I know now, Ida tried a starter to see if the yeast was truly dead....

Fred

 

[jonmohno]

I made my first starter using washed yeast and had no idea if anything happend really. After a day i brewed and pitched it anyway. Better than no starter.I knew i may not be able to tell before making it-and that part is right.For all i know i could have pitched yeast that was just beginning to start in the starter.
I dont think its impossible to have dead yeast,if its exposed at too high a temp its toast.Even said maybe some minute amount of yeast may survive enough to make a starter anyway. I would be using some yeast nutrient or something though.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

I think the stipulation of "did you make a starter first?" should be added before people claim their yeast was dead. The only time I've ever had a starter fail was one or two attempts at culturing yeast from bottles, but that's completely different than using a vial/smack pack (especially when it's a year old bottle of a 7.2% saison).

Right now I have a 4 month old smack pack of 3724 on my stir plate, and even at 70*F it started showing signs of life within 24 hours. If you aren't going to bother making a starter for liquid yeast, why even bother aerating your wort, sanitizing everything, or even brewing at all? Unless you're brewing a very low gravity beer (think >1.040) and have an extremely fresh pack of yeast, you're already underpitching. Healthy yeast is happy yeast, and happy yeast makes good beer.

From Wyeast:

=====

6. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?

No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter.

=====

But.... I do make a starter when I use dry yeast.

 

[SwampassJ]

From Wyeast:

=====

6. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?

No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter.

=====

But.... I do make a starter when I use dry yeast.

Excellent course of action. Short shelf life? NO STARTER. Long shelf life of dry yeast with built in nutrient reserves? STARTER!!!! &#3232;_&#3232;

 

[corkybstewart]

I ordered some yeast in the summer many years ago, the vials had expanded so much most of the liquid had leaked out but using starters made the remaining yeast usable. I learned my lesson-I order yeast in the early spring and have it delivered to my office so it won't sit in my 120F mailbox all day.
But I've had 3 or 4 wyeast pouches with dead yeast, and one or 2 WL vials that I couldn't revive. I would never consider using WL without a starter, regardless of the freshness of the yeast.

 

[phenry]

From Wyeast:

=====

6. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?

No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter.

=====

But.... I do make a starter when I use dry yeast.

Pitching rates

The pitching rate most commonly mentioned in the homebrewing literature is 1 million cells per milliliter of wort per degree Plato. For the mathematically challenged, I want to point out that 1 million per milliliter is the same as saying 1 billion per liter, and that there are typically 100 billion cells per liquid yeast package. So, one package could ferment 10 liters of 10 °Plato wort. Furthermore, if you consider that specific gravity is about four times the °Plato, and that there are roughly 4 liters in a gallon, then this example roughly equates to one package being capable of fermenting 2.5 gallons of 1.040 wort.

(From http://www.byo.com/component/resource/article/1749-yeast-pitching-rates-advance-homebrewing)

It's not nearly as cut and dry as "1 pack of yeast for one batch of beer." As with any biological process, there's so many variables involved that there's no one answer to how much yeast you need to pitch and how to go about obtaining that cell count for optimum pitching rates. But there is an answer, you may just have to do a little work to figure it out. Or just use Mr Malty's pitching rate calculator.

 

[WhiskeySam]

Yeast, especially yeast shipped from an otherwise excellent California based online supplier we all know during the summer months by ground shipping, will arrive dead. I made a gallon starter of WL 833 last September with two of four vials[/B] I shipped during last summer. Aside from the desert transport across Arizona, New Mexico and West Texas through the worst summer since Pangea split, the yeast was indeed dead. Not "sorta" - not "needed to wait". I had dead yeast. Temps last summer ranged from 105 to 110 pretty constantly, which amounts to over 130 in warehouse situations and in the backs of shipping trucks. This kind of heat flat kills yeast. Waited over a week with no activity (meaning absolutely zero signs of fermentation) added the other two vials (which were also dead) before making a small starter with two vials of fresh 833 purchased at the LHBS. Wort took off after that. You shouldn't have to spend over 40 bucks on yeast for a batch of beer.

Don't buy yeast online.
If you do buy yeast online, pay for express shipping.
Pay for the ice packs.
Don't expect live yeast if you ship during the summer by ground, especially if you live in the south.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Excellent course of action. Short shelf life? NO STARTER. Long shelf life of dry yeast with built in nutrient reserves? STARTER!!!! &#3232;_&#3232;

HA! Seriously, I thought the same thing... you're doing it backwards.


Never had dead yeast. But then again I buy from LHBS and would recommend you do the same. I'm sure there are plenty of homebrew stores in your area.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

HA! Seriously, I thought the same thing... you're doing it backwards.

I read the Wyeast site and they say "No need to make a starter". I read the back of my Notty pack and it says "Make a starter". I come here and get laughed at... Par for the course here though... lol

I bought this from my LHBS. Picked it right out of the fridge. And funny enough, I just received a text from a friend that works there saying that I'm the second person since Monday to report back with no fermentation. I'll go in tomorrow and get it sorted.

It's not nearly as cut and dry as "1 pack of yeast for one batch of beer."

I never said it was. Remember, I had NO fermentation and NO drop in gravity in close to 48 hrs. I don't have the opportunity to wait any longer or I would have.

 

[SwampassJ]

I read the Wyeast site and they say "No need to make a starter". I read the back of my Notty pack and it says "Make a starter". I come here and get laughed at... Not surprised, it happens a lot around here I see.

None of my nottingham packs I have used have ever said use a starter. They have said rehydrate. You're getting picked on because your writing off an entire yeast company because of one problem that could have been avoided. There is a giant sticky for this problem.

No you should never have to wait 48+ hours when you pitch yeast but the problem is you are usually underpitching by at least half and then you only know if the yeast is viable if the pack swells. Then again with dry yeast you're pitching about double what you get in a liquid vial/smack pack

EDIT Difference between starter and proofing yeast.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

I have seen too many people get laughed out of here the last month.

Have fun with your site, fk this. There's other sites out there where people will let you learn without climbing up one side of you and down the other. Why be such a prick about it.

When I get messages like this its time to move on...

From SwampassJ
You are ****ing pathetic. I gave you info to prevent this from happening. At least I didn't lie about my packages saying to do a starter for dry to try and save face.

I wasnt lying I am just new and when it said to add this to water etc I made a mistake and thought it was saying to "Make a starter"

Fk off. I'll go somewhere else. What a waste of money this site is for new brewers.