Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[sibelman]

Of course, people are people - so it makes sense to let us know right up front that we'd be penalized for being selfish jerks.

 

[Bilsch]

The worst inconvenience, if you can call it that, was a few times when I was happily charging at 150kw on 1A and someone pulls into 1B and takes half of that. But those were older 1st gen superchargers that split the power between two stalls. The newer ones don't do that anymore.

 

[oakbarn]

The success will be the problem, unless charging stations keep pace with sales. Most of the charging stations will be in big cities with more rural areas getting few. EV are great in a city, but out in the country, not so much. I cannot see that changing.

Mod note: Tax policy discussion removed.

 

[Kent88]

We try not to talk about taxes and subsidies in this thread beyond acknowledging that they exist. This isn't the place to discuss tax policy. That kind of discussion is more appropriate for threads in Debate.

 

[oakbarn]

OK.

 

[mac_1103]

Most of the charging stations will be in big cities with more rural areas getting few.

There are fewer gas stations in rural areas too.

 

[fatjay]

I think that there will be significant complications in the electrical grid as well. Just one 4 port fast charging station requires nearly 2000a @ 240v. To have a few pop up here and there is probably not a huge deal, but widespread adaptation of a lot of fast chargers, say as common as gas stations, will significantly tax the grid and require considerable upgrades.

And that's not even considering the plant's abilities to supply the power. During the hottest and coldest months, major metropolitan areas are already under extreme strain for their grid supply, with power companies demanding customers reduce usage with air conditioning, heating, and ev charging. Now imagine more than 1% of the cars on the road were electric.

Pushing ev's on people without the ability to charge them via charging station, which doesn't exist without the infrastructure, which doesn't exist without the power plants to back it is not very nice. People should have the choice, but should also be aware of the risks and limitations. I'm a multi-car household, and have an EV. If I only had one car, there's no way I could have it be an EV.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

The success will be the problem, unless charging stations keep pace with sales. Most of the charging stations will be in big cities with more rural areas getting few. EV are great in a city, but out in the country, not so much. I cannot see that changing.

I disagree. I think the long-term trend is going to be charging at "home"--whatever that means for each person--which means that you likely won't need to charge your vehicle much outside your house unless you're taking a road trip. In the city, there are NOT going to be a lot of days that you're driving 200+ miles. And that's plenty on one charge. The issue right now for city-dwellers is that if you're in an apartment, a condo complex, etc that there isn't a great charging infrastructure. That needs to change.

In the country, it's more often that you have farther to go. But it's *also* more common--due to cheaper real estate, that people live in single family homes where they could install their own L2 charger at home. So again, unless you are a traveling salesman who spends time just gobbling up miles (and I've known these guys; I'm not dismissing this), it's probably not all that typical to be driving 200+ miles very often.

But ultimately, I think overall the "gas station model" doesn't actually translate when you can charge at home. As this transitions, the idea is we get to a point where charging away from home is the exception.

I think that there will be significant complications in the electrical grid as well. Just one 4 port fast charging station requires nearly 2000a @ 240v. To have a few pop up here and there is probably not a huge deal, but widespread adaptation of a lot of fast chargers, say as common as gas stations, will significantly tax the grid and require considerable upgrades.

And that's not even considering the plant's abilities to supply the power. During the hottest and coldest months, major metropolitan areas are already under extreme strain for their grid supply, with power companies demanding customers reduce usage with air conditioning, heating, and ev charging. Now imagine more than 1% of the cars on the road were electric.

Pushing ev's on people without the ability to charge them via charging station, which doesn't exist without the infrastructure, which doesn't exist without the power plants to back it is not very nice. People should have the choice, but should also be aware of the risks and limitations. I'm a multi-car household, and have an EV. If I only had one car, there's no way I could have it be an EV.

Saw your reply as I was working on the above.

I absolutely do feel there's validity to the concern over stress on the grid. However per the above, I don't think it's due to EV fast chargers--because I don't think the future of EVs is going to be people regularly using fast chargers. It's the "gas station model" that I don't think will survive.

That said, coming up with all the power needed to keep these EVs charged--even if it's being done overnight at home--is a strain on generation and the grid that we currently don't have. If we waved a magic wand and tomorrow morning, 50% of the US automotive rolling stock was EV, would the grid be able to handle that? I don't know.. The good thing is that most charging of EVs is an overnight thing, which is when the grid is least stressed. HOWEVER, if people don't consider this and plug their cars in at 5:30 PM when they get home (grid being stressed most from 4-9 PM as I understand it), it could be bad...

 

[sibelman]

We try not to talk about taxes and subsidies in this thread beyond acknowledging that they exist. This isn't the place to discuss tax policy. That kind of discussion is more appropriate for threads in Debate.

I've created a Debate Forum thread for this purpose.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm a lot more concerned about data centers stressing the grid than EV charging.

 

[fatjay]

I disagree. I think the long-term trend is going to be charging at "home"--whatever that means for each person--which means that you likely won't need to charge your vehicle much outside your house unless you're taking a road trip. In the city, there are NOT going to be a lot of days that you're driving 200+ miles. And that's plenty on one charge. The issue right now for city-dwellers is that if you're in an apartment, a condo complex, etc that there isn't a great charging infrastructure. That needs to change.

In the country, it's more often that you have farther to go. But it's *also* more common--due to cheaper real estate, that people live in single family homes where they could install their own L2 charger at home. So again, unless you are a traveling salesman who spends time just gobbling up miles (and I've known these guys; I'm not dismissing this), it's probably not all that typical to be driving 200+ miles very often.

But ultimately, I think overall the "gas station model" doesn't actually translate when you can charge at home. As this transitions, the idea is we get to a point where charging away from home is the exception.


Saw your reply as I was working on the above.

I absolutely do feel there's validity to the concern over stress on the grid. However per the above, I don't think it's due to EV fast chargers--because I don't think the future of EVs is going to be people regularly using fast chargers. It's the "gas station model" that I don't think will survive.

That said, coming up with all the power needed to keep these EVs charged--even if it's being done overnight at home--is a strain on generation and the grid that we currently don't have. If we waved a magic wand and tomorrow morning, 50% of the US automotive rolling stock was EV, would the grid be able to handle that? I don't know.. The good thing is that most charging of EVs is an overnight thing, which is when the grid is least stressed. HOWEVER, if people don't consider this and plug their cars in at 5:30 PM when they get home (grid being stressed most from 4-9 PM as I understand it), it could be bad...

Charging at home is fine for me and maybe you. But there's a hundred million americans that live in rentals, apartments, townhomes, condo's, especially in the cities, where charging at home, overnight, is just not an option. Those are the people that will be relying on fast charging stations.

I have observed another potential problem. I don't know how widespread this is, but it's been fairly consistent for me. It's people's insistance in charging to 100%. This is a real issue that affects the longevity of the battery. The people that I see doing it are on public chargers, and likely will just trade the car in after 3-5 years. The vast majroity of the EV's that I've seen have no way to easily check the battery health. Which is going to be a real issue with second hand sales. How many people will pay a decent dollar for a used EV when they have no idea how the previous owners treated the battery.

With modern day beurcracy, and this isn't a political thing, building a new powerplant isn't an easy thing. The last new plant was nuclear in 2016, and before that was a coal plant in 2013. If EV adaptation went from 1% to 5% in the next 5 years, there is absolutely no way power plants will be built to absorb that additional strain on the grid in that time.

I have off-grid solar with grid as backup, and time of use billing. This is my breakout:

• From 12am-6am, my price is 4c/kwh.
• From 6am-12pm it's 6c/kwh.
• From 12pm-6pm it's 28c/kwh.
• From 6pm-12am it's 6c/kwh

Based on that, they're trying to discourage power consumption from 12pm-6pm, which is probably their highest usage. If people start charging when they get home at 6pm, that's going to change dramatically.

I don't charge my car from solar, but rather from the grid during super off peak rates.

 

[oakbarn]

There are fewer gas stations in rural areas too.

In Texas between Fort Worth and Amarillio on US 287, there is at least one (and generally 3 or 4) gas stations about every 30 miles. It is very rural.

Progress: in the 1960s, there was ONE place to buy beer near Fort Worth. The next one was up near Lubbock (about 5 hours). Now there are several every 30 miles.

Why 30 miles? All of these little towns were where a steam train had to stop to take on water. I do not know how far apart charging stations are, but I do see them at hotels sometimes. So in the future, may at least one every 30 miles?

Here in the DFW area, they are everywhere.

I do remember as a child that there were signs about the LAST GAS for 100 miles out west.

 

[oakbarn]

In the country, .......... guys; I'm not dismissing this), it's probably not all that typical to be driving 200+ miles very often.

...

I don't think you have lived in a rural area. I have driven 200 miles to see a movie. I no longer drive (have not in years), but my wife puts 30,000 miles a year on our car (She or I do not work). I go 45 miles to see my doctor each way. When I first moved here, it was 26.4 miles round trip to the grocery store. Everything is being built up now so every thing is much closer, but I still go see the same doctor (had him for many years).

When I was a kid in West Texas, we drove HOURS to a regular football game. I think they still do. The longest one I remember was about 8 1/2 hours, but 2 to 3 hours were common.

I remember when I moved to New Jersey (I lived on the north coast south of New York.) I had an appointment in Freehold. I got out the map and saw it was about halfway down the state. I was sure I would not make my appointment. It took about 30 minutes to get there. Halfway a cross a Texas map would be a little longer.

So I do not believe that anyone rural would have an EV as their only car.

I think for short trips, they would be great, but rural people will need gas cars for the future as I see it.

 

[doug293cz]

It will be a long time, if ever, before ICE vehicles disappear. What will happen is BEVs will continue to increase their share of the vehicle market in a monotonic fashion. This will cause gas stations to go out of business over time as demand drops, and eventually the lack of readily available refueling options for ICEVs will look a lot like the current situation for EV charging stations. Lower volumes may cause gas prices to rise eventually, but over the short term, gas prices might decrease if an oversupply of oil develops.

Brew on

 

[Airborneguy]

Pushing ev's on people without the ability to charge them via charging station, which doesn't exist without the infrastructure, which doesn't exist without the power plants to back it is not very nice. People should have the choice, but should also be aware of the risks and limitations. I'm a multi-car household, and have an EV. If I only had one car, there's no way I could have it be an EV.

We have two. One has only been to a public charging station a single time to test the Tesla adapter I bought just in case, the other sees public charging maybe 6-8 times per YEAR. This pattern holds true for 80% of EV charging: https://www.energy.gov/topics/natio...=T&show_map=true&show_corridor_stations=false

Yes, there are outliers, and they shouldn't be forced to make the switch. But the need for public charging on par with gas stations saturation is wildly overblown. It's a different technology with different needs. There's effectively no such thing as a home gas station. That's why so many pumps are necessary.

 

[Airborneguy]

I'm a lot more concerned about data centers stressing the grid than EV charging.

It's looking like AI will consume far more power than cars.

Consider also that as gas use drops, a decent amount of electricity will be shifted from gas stations, refining, etc, to charging.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Charging at home is fine for me and maybe you. But there's a hundred million americans that live in rentals, apartments, townhomes, condo's, especially in the cities, where charging at home, overnight, is just not an option. Those are the people that will be relying on fast charging stations.

Yeah, and I hear you. I live in a SFH, but it's a rental. My landlord is cheap. I have the means where I could pay to have an L2 charger installed (with his permission obv) as long as it doesn't require additional service from the power company, where it might get prohibitively expensive. But living where I do is one of the reasons that I am not in the EV market yet.

Granted, I drive infrequently enough where I could get by with 110V charging just fine. But that also means that I drive infrequently enough that currently ZERO total cost of ownership analysis makes EV a winner economically for me.

(As it stands, for various reasons I'm at least 2-3 years out from my next vehicle purchase, so it's a non-starter anyway...)

I have observed another potential problem. I don't know how widespread this is, but it's been fairly consistent for me. It's people's insistance in charging to 100%. This is a real issue that affects the longevity of the battery. The people that I see doing it are on public chargers, and likely will just trade the car in after 3-5 years. The vast majroity of the EV's that I've seen have no way to easily check the battery health. Which is going to be a real issue with second hand sales. How many people will pay a decent dollar for a used EV when they have no idea how the previous owners treated the battery.

Again this is a worry, as I don't generally buy cars brand new, and generally prefer to buy a 2-3 year old low-mileage gently-used vehicle. And with batteries, I don't know how "gently used" any one of these vehicles will be...

It's one of those things that I think about for that decision in a couple years for my next vehicle.

 

[Bilsch]

I really doubt we will run out of power for EV anytime soon as there is already 100 gigawatts of excess capacity on the grid as it sits right now. To make it even more efficient all we need is more grid scale batteries and better interconnection. These things are easily solvable and not terribly expensive. In fact utilities are already installing batteries at a break neck speed simply to make money on load shifting.

The most important thing to remember about this situation is that demand always proceeds supply. Utilities will not lift a finger in anticipation but will only move once we start getting close to the limits of current generation. The cheapest sources of power these days, wind, solar and gas don;t take very long to build out and so I seriously doubt there will be a disaster if EV adoption starts to increase at a rapid pace. If they lag and you are worried then one can always install solar on their own house or yard.

Therefore if you are fearful about future capacity really the best solution would be to buy an electric car, use more kilowatts and push your local utility to start planning for expansion.

Another not insignificant thing to consider is that it takes about an equal amount of energy to refine a gallon of gas as that same gas provides to move your car. Roughly 6kw of energy input to refine 1 gallon and from that you can extract 6.74 kw useful energy to propel a car. An average EV can go 24 miles on 6 kw. As refineries close that capacity will become available for EV.

 

[Kent88]

I don't think you have lived in a rural area. I have driven 200 miles to see a movie. I no longer drive (have not in years), but my wife puts 30,000 miles a year on our car (She or I do not work). I go 45 miles to see my doctor each way. When I first moved here, it was 26.4 miles round trip to the grocery store. Everything is being built up now so every thing is much closer, but I still go see the same doctor (had him for many years).

When I was a kid in West Texas, we drove HOURS to a regular football game. I think they still do. The longest one I remember was about 8 1/2 hours, but 2 to 3 hours were common.

...

So I do not believe that anyone rural would have an EV as their only car.

I think for short trips, they would be great, but rural people will need gas cars for the future as I see it.

Ok, I have a couple of comments.

I've lived in rural communities for a large majority of my life and grew up on a farm. You're making blanket statements that just don't hold up.

"So I do not believe that anyone rural would have an EV as their only car. "

Anyone? Gosh, I could point to probably half a dozen retired farm couples that still attend my (rural) home church who refuse to move to town. I'm very familiar with one couple in particular who rarely drive further than 30mi away from their farm, and might only drive anywhere at all three days a week. An EV could absolutely handle that.

Heck, before my dad retired I looked at what a hypothetical EV truck would need to be able to do to haul fed steers to his preferred sale barn. We probably already have EV trucks that can handle it available. Put in a couple of well placed public chargers and they'd be fine.

Not every rural place is going to be as sparsely populated as whatever place in Texas you had the fortune to call home was. I certainly acknowledge that there are more remote places than where I grew up.

Moving along... I applaud the dedication it takes to go to all the away highschool (correct me if I'm wrong assuming highschool) football games, but IMHO that's a luxury to regularly travel 2-3 hours to these games. I remember when I "played" years ago the parents would occasionally, maybe once a season, ask for a bus so they could go and support their kids for an away game a long distance away. There are options that don't involve everyone taking their own vehicle to every single away game. The aforementioned bus, carpooling, hitchhiking, booking the school gym/auditorium and putting a live stream on the projector to watch with other parents, listening to the play by play on the radio, etc, etc. these are all fine options.

I'd say that there are worse things in the world than occasionally missing your kid's away football games, but from what I understand of Texas culture they might preemptively ban me from ever visiting if they see that, so I better be careful.

As far as driving 200 miles to see a movie, that better have been before 2010, and I hope one of your relatives was starring in it, and they better have invited you to the premier. You're free to do whatever you want, but good grief I can't think of a movie I'd drive three hours to see in a regular theater. I really hope there was something special about that movie and/or venue.

 

[oakbarn]

When I was a kid, football was king in the town. If it was far enough away, school was out early and almost everyone in town went. I left when I was 12 and never looked back. I have been out to play golf at Teralingua and passed through some towns that I went to for games.

My mother drove to night school in Alpine some days (140 miles one way). She also went to Oddessa Junoir College that was about 75 miles. To this day, I am not sure there is any
Place closer now.

For me, too many road trips. In fact, Sunday we are driving 2 1/2 hours to go to a museum for my grandson’s 8th birthday. Could
Maybe make that Trip with an EV, but I go to Durango which is about 12 hours, which would not be an EV trip.

 

[tracer bullet]

Maybe make that Trip with an EV, but I go to Durango which is about 12 hours, which would not be an EV trip.

Certainly there are cases where EV's make less sense. The issue is that so many people that they make sense for don't realize it.

And to be clear you could do the trip, but with stops every 200 miles (3 hours or so of driving). For about a half hour. Maybe not this precise trip, but generally speaking. And a half hour break every 3 hours maybe isn't ideal but it's not so terrible. You could also rent a gas car for the trip and back.

No one will argue an EV is the thing for 100% of what someone does. FYI if you're thinking that's the case here. But it makes a boatload of sense for a ton of people that drive like 20 miles a day and that's about it.

 

[oakbarn]

I looked at Hybrids (Prius and that Honda bug looking thing) when they first came out. I did a spreadsheet on cost and saving and do to the price of the car vs a gas one, gas would have had to go to just above $6 a gallon to make it equal to a gas car. The other thing was how big they were. The bug thing was way too small and was at max weight with 2 adults. The Prius had very little luggage. I am. Sure things have dramatically improved since then, but not likely in the market for a any car in the future (Too old)

 

[Kent88]

For me, too many road trips. In fact, Sunday we are driving 2 1/2 hours to go to a museum for my grandson’s 8th birthday. Could
Maybe make that Trip with an EV, but I go to Durango which is about 12 hours, which would not be an EV trip.

Doing a very quick look at that route on plug share. I can believe that there would be some charging anxiety along the way, but there are more places to charge along the way than I thought. If a trip on that route isn't possible with an EV now, it isn't far off.

I'm just not going to put in the effort in to see how many miles it is between public charging stations along that route. The most I've done for one of you fine randos in this thread was a trip across Iowa on 9, and I was already kind of familiar with that route and half interested in the rest of it for my own reasons.

 

[oakbarn]

I did have my first ride in a Tesla last Saturday as a friend of mine had bought one a few months ago. It was very nice.

 

[fatjay]

Here's an interesting video in emerging battery technology.

 

[Bilsch]

Maybe make that Trip with an EV, but I go to Durango which is about 12 hours, which would not be an EV trip.

If I were making that trip in the Tesla I could make it across through Roswell using the many j1772 chargers available in that area. Lubbock-Clovis-Santa Rosa is also possible. Or if I had a smaller battery instead I’d probably take the freeway through ElPaso and Albuquerque as there are plenty of superchargers along that route.

 

[oakbarn]

If I were making that trip in the Tesla I could make it across through Roswell using the many j1772 chargers available in that area. Lubbock-Clovis-Santa Rosa is also possible. Or if I had a smaller battery instead I’d probably take the freeway through ElPaso and Albuquerque as there are plenty of superchargers along that route.

We only stop for gas twice and lunch (where we get gas). I do not think an EV would work as we sometimes have 7 people and luggage (and a Thule).

If I was still working (only about 30 miles each way), an EV would have been great to commute. They will just not work with the travel we do now.

I did used to rent cars for long trips, but now very $$$$ to rent.

 

[Kent88]

I forget, but I think that drive was about 800mi?

I think Rivian R1S have a trim that is supposed to have a range of over 400mi on a full charge, and it seats 7.

12hrs, 800mi, and only two or three stops. With that kind of bladder control you're welcome to come ice fishing with us any time the ice is safe to walk on.

 

[Imnobarista]

I am definitely getting one my model X just waiting for delivery

 

[mac_1103]

I think Rivian R1S have a trim that is supposed to have a range of over 400mi on a full charge, and it seats 7.

Pricey though. Of course, everything is pricey these days.