Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Airborneguy]

Unfortunately, it’s definitely not changing in my case. She hates it. She gets pissed when I nail it to change lanes quickly, forget about stop lights. The 3.1, 0-60 is a shock to a lot of people, even “car people”.

Most “normal” car guys know what 4 second cars feel like but under 4 is really fast and rare, especially coupled with the instant torque.

Only a few cars come close and the most common is the recent Corvettes which really aren’t all that common. Everyone thinks Dodge’s “muscle cars” are close but when I tell them that most are close to 5 second 0-60, they realize just how fast my car really is.

 

[Kent88]

Let her drive once in a while.

 

[Airborneguy]

Let her drive once in a while.

Trust me, I’ve tried. She’s only agreed to drive it twice. Both times only because I was legit drunk.

 

[Kent88]

Sounds like she should be DD more.

 

[doug293cz]

What made me realize that my wife's opinion of our car had significantly improved was when she told me about racing a Mazda at a stop and go light.

I had no idea you married a fast woman.

Brew on

 

[A.Homebrewer]

No electric car for me. I live in Montana, a very large state with a very small population. Going anywhere involves a relatively long drive. We regularly travel between our farm and our city house, 250 miles one way. Some electrics have that much range, but not at the 75-80 mph cruising speeds common here.

When I fully retire, and we start spending most of our time in the city, an electric vehicle could be a possibility. We only drive 100 miles, or so, a week when we’re there. But, we would still need a conventional vehicle for travel outside the city, so the electric would be more of a “hey look at me” thing than a truly viable alternative.

Even here in northern Iowa they seem impractical for anything other than commuting to work, if you work close by. Currently EVs are basically an urban/suburban car. There is also a severe problem of loss of battery capacity in cold weather. On a personal note, no one is making a convertible at anything approaching a reasonable price.

 

[Airborneguy]

“Severe problem” is still a dramatization. An EV owner SHOULD have properly analyzed the situation prior to making the jump.

As I have stated before in this thread, I drive well above the average daily and annual mileage rates borne out by extensive data on US drivers. I’ve put 22,000 miles on my Tesla in 10 months. I have never HAD to charge on the road, not once. I’ve only done it by choice or during road trips of 300+ miles.

A prospective EV owner should understand the situation before they get into it. In that case, cold weather range decrease is inconsequential. I THINK my range is down 30%. But guess what? I don’t care. Because I am still well covered for my 70+ miles per day driving habits.

 

[Airborneguy]

Holy crap I was close. I ran the numbers. 22,000 miles from 2/1-12/13 is 69 miles per day.

 

[Kent88]

Even here in northern Iowa they seem impractical for anything other than commuting to work, if you work close by. Currently EVs are basically an urban/suburban car. There is also a severe problem of loss of battery capacity in cold weather.

I'm pretty familiar with parts of northern Iowa.

The vehicle I reference most for hypothetical road trips is the Chevrolet Bolt, which has advertised somewhere around 250miles on a full charge, and is one of the more affordable new EVs.

If one wanted to take a drive across northern Iowa, roughly following 9, starting from Lansing and going west, if I'm not mistaken you'd encounter public charging in Decorah, and then you'd be able to choose from options in Mason City and maybe Clear Lake, then Estherville, then Rock Rapids, and from there you're practically in Dakota and Sioux Falls.

Breaking it down, plugging in generic towns into Google:
Lansing to Decorah: 35miles
Decorah to Clear Lake: 92miles
Mason City (which looks like the more likely stop than Clear Lake, it's closer to Decorah) to Estherville: 100 miles
Estherville to Rock Rapids: 70 miles
Rock Rapids to Sioux Falls: 32 miles

Each of those chunks is more than manageable for a Bolt. But your next argument would be that winter temperatures would make that impossible. So at some point in March or April into October or November, I don't think you can contest that it would be manageable.

Public fast chargers in/near Riceville, Buffalo Center, and Spirit Lake would, IMHO, make range anxiety on such a trip a non-factor for all but the coldest of cold snaps. Even without them, I would be pretty confident that a Bolt could make this trip through a typical northern Iowa winter day.

 

[Airborneguy]

…and again I must point out, he apparently LIVES in Northern Iowa. Most likely 99% of his charging would be done at home with little need for public charging.

My “facebook response” for the “there’s no chargers in my county!” mantra is:

1) Why would you need them?
2) There are. Give your county and I’ll show you plugshare.

I’ve very rarely been wrong.

This guy’s post is a perfect example of what I was addressing above: ICE thinking applied to EV life.

He simply doesn’t know so he applies ICE principles when trying to prove “they don’t work.”

 

[Airborneguy]

Northwest Iowa. If I zoom in further, tons more will pop up. Give me an intersection.

 

[Kent88]

Northwest Iowa. If I zoom in further, tons more will pop up. Give me an intersection.

Interesting. I was looking in the chargepoint app. Apparently I am filtering out more charging stations than I thought.

 

[Airborneguy]

Interesting. I was looking in the chargepoint app. Apparently I am filtering out more charging stations than I thought.

Chargepoint is only going to show their chargers. Plugshare shows everything (unless you filter manually).

 

[Bilsch]

Even here in northern Iowa they seem impractical for anything other than commuting to work, if you work close by. Currently EVs are basically an urban/suburban car. There is also a severe problem of loss of battery capacity in cold weather. On a personal note, no one is making a convertible at anything approaching a reasonable price.

Going on 5 years now in a Tesla and I’m not limited to any type of driving. Many thousands of trouble free, inexpensive and fun miles.

 

[Kent88]

Chargepoint is only going to show their chargers. Plugshare shows everything (unless you filter manually).

I think I get some out of network stuff. I find it hilarious that Kwik Trip (Kwik Star in Iowa) petrol stations that offer EV drivers a 120v outlet to plug into for 3-4 miles per hour of charge come up on this app. Yes it's pitiful, that's why I find it amusing.

Maybe it's because my car doesn't do DC fast charging so all the DC chargers are filtered out from my app.

 

[Kent88]

Wow. Looking around plugshare instead of chargepoint for J1772 and CCS/SAE chargers.

Looking around my routes to see my parents and my in-laws. I will have no range anxiety going with a pure BEV when my wife and I decide we need something bigger than the Volt for hauling around the kids.

It will come down to how few of charging network subscriptions I can get away with. It seems silly to me that one can't just insert a credit card and plug in, but we aren't there yet.

 

[Airborneguy]

Yup, they’re literally everywhere.

The dinosaurs who constantly parrot “but there’s no chargers like there are gas stations” are simply blind, willfully ignorant, or paid oil company shills.

 

[sibelman]

Wow. Looking around plugshare instead of chargepoint for J1772 and CCS/SAE chargers.

Looking around my routes to see my parents and my in-laws. I will have no range anxiety going with a pure BEV when my wife and I decide we need something bigger than the Volt for hauling around the kids.

It will come down to how few of charging network subscriptions I can get away with. It seems silly to me that one can't just insert a credit card and plug in, but we aren't there yet.

Generally, worst case scenario at a charging station for which I lack a card/dongle/widget is that I call a toll-free number and give them my credit card -- then I can charge right away. No, not as seamless as "just insert a card and plug in", but still workable. I haven't yet tried the Electrify America stations but I understand they're closer to the card-and-plug model @Kent88 is talking about.

I do almost all charging at home and have no paid subscriptions, but one or more services have a bit of my money in their hands in case I ever need their charger.

 

[Kent88]

FAQ | Electrify America

If I’m not a member, how do I start a charging session at an Electrify America charger?

As a guest (without an Electrify America account), you can pay by credit card. Every Electrify America charger is equipped with a credit card reader, to make charging easily available and accessible to all EV drivers.

First, plug the connector into the vehicle. Follow all steps on the touchscreen before entering a Visa or MasterCard credit card for payment. If your card has a chip, please insert it fully into the reader.

A temporary authorization of $50 will be applied to all credit or debit cards, and will be released after final billing takes place. The duration of this hold is determined by your card provider.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Wasn't sure where to mention this but given the "cold weather battery" thing...

I just got an automated email from AutoZone asking "Can your battery handle the winter in Mission Viejo?" -- Obv referring to my ICEV battery, but apropos to this thread.

Uhh, yeah, AutoZone, I think it'll be just fine. It's forecasted to be 79 and sunny on Christmas Day here in Mission Viejo...

 

[Brooothru]

Pardon the thread drift, but I’ve got a question about lithium battery charging. My two most recent RVs have had solar panels that basically exist to keep the coach batteries (lead acid/AGM) charged. We have a motor home on order that will have 400W of solar panels, 2x 100 amp hr lithium batteries and solar controller. The inverter will provide enough power/flow to handle all but the heaviest load (heat pump and fan) as well as DC loads.

The solar panels and controller connect directly to the hot battery bus, so there’s no way to prevent charging using the normal battery disconnect switch, other than physically disconnecting the battery bank to isolate the batteries.

My concern is that optimal charging and battery life for lithium batteries is to limit charging to approximately 75~80% capacity, and occasionally to fully discharge the batteries (deep cycle). This won’t be possible if the panels and controller are continuously connected to the battery bank (assuming sunshine), or if the chassis motor is operating (alternator powering the battery charger), or if plugged in to an external 30 amp power source (also powers the battery charger).

What part of the picture am I missing here. Don’t want to replace the batteries every couple of years, ‘cause they’re a grand $$$ each.

 

[doug293cz]

Pardon the thread drift, but I’ve got a question about lithium battery charging. My two most recent RVs have had solar panels that basically exist to keep the coach batteries (lead acid/AGM) charged. We have a motor home on order that will have 400W of solar panels, 2x 100 amp hr lithium batteries and solar controller. The inverter will provide enough power/flow to handle all but the heaviest load (heat pump and fan) as well as DC loads.

The solar panels and controller connect directly to the hot battery bus, so there’s no way to prevent charging using the normal battery disconnect switch, other than physically disconnecting the battery bank to isolate the batteries.

My concern is that optimal charging and battery life for lithium batteries is to limit charging to approximately 75~80% capacity, and occasionally to fully discharge the batteries (deep cycle). This won’t be possible if the panels and controller are continuously connected to the battery bank (assuming sunshine), or if the chassis motor is operating (alternator powering the battery charger), or if plugged in to an external 30 amp power source (also powers the battery charger).

What part of the picture am I missing here. Don’t want to replace the batteries every couple of years, ‘cause they’re a grand $$$ each.

Sounds like you need to add a charging controller to the system. I can't imagine that such things don't exist. I'm surprised that that is not included with the system.

Brew on

 

[Brooothru]

Sounds like you need to add a charging controller to the system. I can't imagine that such things don't exist. I'm surprised that that is not included with the system.

Brew on

In fact, it may be. Since the vehicle won’t be delivered for probably 20 months or more (supply chains, etc. Three year delivery time line). I know the unit components to be installed, so I should be able to research tech manuals online.

Are charging controllers generally programmable? Obviously there are times when 100% charging would be desired, and ‘float’ charging when in storage, as well as deep cycling discharge. I’m fairly new to the world of lithium storage. Charging controllers I’ve had in the past we’re pretty rudimentary, charging to 100% all the time, then switching to a maintenance or float charging to maintain 100%. Just trying to suss out the ‘new’ tech.

 

[doug293cz]

In fact, it may be. Since the vehicle won’t be delivered for probably 20 months or more (supply chains, etc. Three year delivery time line). I know the unit components to be installed, so I should be able to research tech manuals online.

Are charging controllers generally programmable? Obviously there are times when 100% charging would be desired, and ‘float’ charging when in storage, as well as deep cycling discharge. I’m fairly new to the world of lithium storage. Charging controllers I’ve had in the past we’re pretty rudimentary, charging to 100% all the time, then switching to a maintenance or float charging to maintain 100%. Just trying to suss out the ‘new’ tech.

I know it's possible to set charging parameters on some laptops that use lithium batteries. I would think that for something like an RV the manufacturer would preset the charge controller for optimum battery life, and give the user a simple user interface to make adjustments, such as "maximize range for an up coming trip" or "maintain battery for extended storage." I believe most BEVs have quite sophisticated battery charging controllers.

Brew on

 

[Airborneguy]

I believe most BEVs have quite sophisticated battery charging controllers.

Brew on

In Teslas at least, the car’s battery management system is very advanced, handling all of these issues without much user input. Comparing EV lithium batteries to typical lithium systems is apples to oranges in most cases because of how the system is managed in a car battery.

For example, it is NOT recommended to ever fully discharge a Tesla battery. By keeping the battery in the mid-ranges of charge as often as possible, you’re decreasing the stress of the “cycles”. Two runs 90% to 40% do not equal the same “stress” of one full 100% to 0% cycle.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Consumer Reports says that BEVs are not more reliable (at the moment) than ICEV...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/new...newsntp&cvid=e7161253bf8d4aa39c8e7bffc614ea7d

We've long heard the argument that EVs should, hypothetically, be more reliable than gasoline cars as they have fewer moving parts. Think of all the valves and gears in a typical ICE drivetrain. However, CR says, "EVs reported problems associated with battery packs, charging, electric drive motors, and unique heating and cooling systems that are required on vehicles that lack a conventional engine." It would be be interesting to know the percentage of issues associated with hardware failures versus the percentage of issues stemming from software bugs, but CR doesn't break out those numbers.

Reminds me of the early days of SSDs relative to HDDs. Everyone looked at an SSD like it *must* be much more reliable than an HDD, because there are no moving parts and HDDs are necessarily fragile. But SSD firmware bugs were very common at the time, and the actual failure rates ended up being pretty similar. There's an old Google study on it.

I expect BEV will eventually improve, but there is of course a learning curve when you basically completely replace a drivetrain that automakers have been working on reliability for decades with something new.

 

[Airborneguy]

I’d like to see a breakdown of the actual data. Like real repairs as opposed to software “fixes”.

Most EV “recalls” are extremely minor OTA software fixes. Further, with Tesla at least, many of those “fixes” weren’t actually problems but “Hey, you can’t do that” feature removals because Tesla likes to flout government regulations.

I received a full-on recall letter when the fart feature was disabled while driving. If that counted towards this study, it’s nonsense.

In 11 months I’ve put 25,000 miles on my car with zero issues besides the spoiler 3M tape detaching and my frunk latch needing to be replaced. Keep in mind my car was bought used so its actually 3 years old. Those are the only service records on my car’s history.

Tires have been replaced of course but that’s it.

 

[Kent88]

Did anyone get a surprise vehicle as a gift from your spouse this year?

I always shake my head at commercials where someone wakes up to a new vehicle with a bow on it in their driveway. How rich does a household have to be before buying a vehicle is so easy it can be done as a surprise for a spouse?

 

[Brooothru]

I’d like to see a breakdown of the actual data. Like real repairs as opposed to software “fixes”.

Most EV “recalls” are extremely minor OTA software fixes. Further, with Tesla at least, many of those “fixes” weren’t actually problems but “Hey, you can’t do that” feature removals because Tesla likes to flout government regulations.

I received a full-on recall letter when the fart feature was disabled while driving. If that counted towards this study, it’s nonsense.

In 11 months I’ve put 25,000 miles on my car with zero issues besides the spoiler 3M tape detaching and my frunk latch needing to be replaced. Keep in mind my car was bought used so its actually 3 years old. Those are the only service records on my car’s history.

Tires have been replaced of course but that’s it.

“I’d like to see a breakdown…”

Odd way to start a comment on an automobile thread.

 

[passedpawn]

Did anyone get a surprise vehicle as a gift from your spouse this year?

I always shake my head at commercials where someone wakes up to a new vehicle with a bow on it in their driveway. How rich does a household have to be before buying a vehicle is so easy it can be done as a surprise for a spouse?

Haha, I agree, but those commercials are funny for me for a diff reason. When things are going your way, the cost of a vehicle is not a big deal. But if you've got my Type A+ wife, then it can't happen. She must be in the decision process on every variable of the vehicle, from the mat color to the caps on the tire valve stems. I can't surprise her with a hair dryer, let alone a vehicle.

 

[tracer bullet]

She must be in the decision process on every variable of the vehicle, from the mat color to the caps on the tire valve stems.

Mine's the opposite. She's bright, but doesn't care about cars. They go from Point A to Point B. They start, stop and turn. She doesn't get that there's more to it for some of us. She has no idea why I'd like a new Nissan Z or Polestar 2.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Did anyone get a surprise vehicle as a gift from your spouse this year?

I always shake my head at commercials where someone wakes up to a new vehicle with a bow on it in their driveway. How rich does a household have to be before buying a vehicle is so easy it can be done as a surprise for a spouse?

 

[Airborneguy]

Mine's the opposite. She's bright, but doesn't care about cars. They go from Point A to Point B. They start, stop and turn. She doesn't get that there's more to it for some of us. She has no idea why I'd like a new Nissan Z or Polestar 2.

Same with my wife. Though she was a little annoyed when I traded her car for the Tesla. Hers was leased. My Outback we kept is 3 years old and paid off.

They gave us - ready for this? - $13,000 above the lease buyout.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I’d like to see a breakdown of the actual data. Like real repairs as opposed to software “fixes”.

Most EV “recalls” are extremely minor OTA software fixes. Further, with Tesla at least, many of those “fixes” weren’t actually problems but “Hey, you can’t do that” feature removals because Tesla likes to flout government regulations.

I received a full-on recall letter when the fart feature was disabled while driving. If that counted towards this study, it’s nonsense.

In 11 months I’ve put 25,000 miles on my car with zero issues besides the spoiler 3M tape detaching and my frunk latch needing to be replaced. Keep in mind my car was bought used so its actually 3 years old. Those are the only service records on my car’s history.

Tires have been replaced of course but that’s it.

Yeah, I get that. I would have liked to see a breakdown as well.

That said, I think the point still stands. We're replacing a very well-known and well-understood drivetrain with a completely new technology. We're trying to do it at a scale (hundreds of thousands to eventually millions of vehicles a year) where all sorts of long-tail goblins will show up that may have escaped notice during development and validation of the platforms. All while the automakers are also trying to optimize and economize to bring prices down fast enough to compete with the ICEV models, which means they're iterating as quickly as they can which can introduce new problems as they go.

There is a learning curve when you do something like this. IMHO there should be an overall reliability advantage eventually compared to ICEV. And the fact that the Model 3 and Nissan Leaf are currently mid-pack relative to ICEV as it relates to reliability should be applauded, because it's taken them years to get there (especially if you consider many of the horror stories with early Tesla vehicles quality control, and then the well-known battery problems with the first-gen Leaf).

To put it simply, I would NOT consider buying any vehicle from an automaker just getting into BEVs, for at a minimum 2-4 years after introduction. I'd love to get something like the F-150 Lightning... But not until maybe a 2027 model year. Ford is behind the curve. Tesla has worked out a lot of issues, as has Nissan. I think Chevy has been working very hard in the background and has experience with the Volt, so I'd trust a Bolt. Same with Toyota and their work in PHEV that mostly should translated to full BEV.

I also wouldn't dare buy a VW. They can't figure out to make the electronics reliable on ICEV... How can I trust them with BEV?

 

[day_trippr]

Charger tech needs upgrades to work in the cold?

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/12/2...ctrify-americas-stations-failing-in-the-cold/

 

[Kent88]

I can't think of a time I've encountered a charger offline due to temperature.

One of the YouTube channels I check out from time to time reviews home charging equipment, and I think part of his routine tests includes freezing the unit.

https://youtube.com/@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney/featured

I don't check out all his reviews, but I don't think I have found one where a charger is completely bricked from spending a day in deep freeze.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I mentioned "long-tail goblins" up above. There are also failures of products that aren't failures of the product themselves, per se, but are due to extremely strange combinations of circumstances.

I [previously] had a role as a field applications engineer across two different companies. Meaning that I worked with companies that were trying to use our products, and was responsible for helping figure out what was happening when they didn't work.

I worked with a company over a decade ago that was building touchscreen fare collection terminals for rail service. We were selling them the embedded PC that was the heart of the operation. They were having ALL sorts of issues with the reliability of the system. We went through tons of things looking at it... We looked at overheating (did this happen when hot). We looked at vibration (did they fail at the exact moment a train was passing, suggesting loose connections). We looked at a half dozen things. It ended up being that they were running long power cables from the power supply to the HDD that the system was operating on, such that they were losing voltage and the HDD which was expecting 5V was getting maybe 4.75V, just above brownout conditions. The failure resulted from any situation where the power demands increased and that voltage dropped too low. It was simple, but it was not easily understood.

I used to work at a company where we moved to a new facility and suddenly our entire phone system was unstable. Sometimes it would work. Sometimes it would go down for completely inexplicable reasons. Nobody could figure it out... Until they realized that a lot of people were going from the office side of the building to the lab side through the server room, and when those server room doors would slam behind them, the servers controlling the phones were malfunctioning due to the shock and vibration of the slamming doors. The solution? "Go around and use the two other doors 40 feet away to get from the office to the lab".

I have more recent examples, from where I work now, that I'm not going to go into in detail. But some of them have been things where we've gotten dozens of extremely competent and highly-paid engineers, sometimes spanning multiple continents and time zones, in order to chase ghosts about a problem that is going on, sometimes for months. In the two cases that spring to mind, when the actual answer was understood, it was a gigantic "a-ha" moment for everyone, and in hindsight it seemed obvious.

Battery performance of a BEV is impacted by temperature. But there's no reason a charging station shouldn't work. As the linked article says, it appears to be ONE charging vendor, and appears to only affect charging stations from ONE of their suppliers. It's someone that didn't catch something from an engineering perspective, but right now it's likely that nobody quite knows exactly where the problem is.

I can tell you from personal experience, there are a LOT of people working on this right now, all of them trying to figure out where it went wrong. Because although I have no experience in BEV charging, I have plenty of experience as an electrical engineer, with the fecal matter hitting the air circulation device with an angry customer breathing down your neck looking for answers.

 

[Airborneguy]

Charger tech needs upgrades to work in the cold?

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/12/2...ctrify-americas-stations-failing-in-the-cold/

If you read the article they admit that their data point is small. And if so, it points towards a certain manufacturer as Electrify America uses different manufacturers to make their chargers.

 

[passedpawn]

WSJ article that might be interesting for you guys.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/not-so...56nhk8y44lv&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

[doug293cz]

WSJ article that might be interesting for you guys.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/not-so...56nhk8y44lv&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Paywalled. Given the source, I suspect it might be influenced by oil industry interests. But, since I can't read it, I can't look for obvious bias in the article.

Brew on