Pliny The Elder Yeast Amount

[Miraculix]

I guess I would come back and say why not rehydrate all time then, especially if you're paying attention to sanitization? If you do it for a higher gravity wort, why not do it for a lower gravity wort? I know you say you can't tell a difference in the final beer, but that's not to say there isn't something happening, or not happening, on the microscopic level. I get why people don't rehydrate. I don't boil my starters for 15 minutes, like the literature says. Does it affect the final outcome? I have no clue. My beer tastes good to me!

This is all coming from me having just read the Yeast book for the first time. I trust the science. Especially coming from 2 experts in the field. Funny thing is, I never even use dry yeast. I just didn't want to steer someone in the wrong direction, even if I'm not 100% sure I know the right direction. I just figured an expert in the field would have better insight than the average Joe.

Science seems to be the new religion. Everybody can write something in a certain way, claim it's science and then it must be true. I trust other people who looked at it at the microscopic level and they could not find this yeast homicide when pitching directly. It got a bit worse when the wort had a higher gravity, that's why I said I would probably do it with higher og worts. Are these guys less scientific? I don't know, at least it matches my personal experience so I tend to believe them.

 

[VikeMan]

Everybody can write something in a certain way, claim it's science and then it must be true.

On the face of it, that would seem to be true for both sides of the argument. The only difference (in the absence of evidence) would be that one claim is more widely accepted, while the newer "extraordinary" claim requires extraordinary evidence.

I trust other people who looked at it at the microscopic level and they could not find this yeast homicide when pitching directly. It got a bit worse when the wort had a higher gravity, that's why I said I would probably do it with higher og worts. Are these guys less scientific?

Perhaps you could post a link to the paper(s) you're referring to.

I don't know, at least it matches my personal experience so I tend to believe them.

Beware confirmation bias. There's a difference between replicating an experiment (where someone runs the same experiment and get the same results) and believing a claim because it's thought to be consistent with someone's subjective experience ("beer tastes good" or whatever). The latter is confirmation bias and isn't valid logic. It's also very hard to avoid.

I'm not saying that either of the claims in this thread are right or wrong, but a good starting point would be a review of these experiments.

 

[Miraculix]

On the face of it, that would seem to be true for both sides of the argument. The only difference (in the absence of evidence) would be that one claim is more widely accepted, while the newer "extraordinary" claim requires extraordinary evidence.



Perhaps you could post a link to the paper(s) you're referring to.



Beware confirmation bias. There's a difference between replicating an experiment (where someone runs the same experiment and get the same results) and believing a claim because it's thought to be consistent with someone's subjective experience ("beer tastes good" or whatever). The latter is confirmation bias and isn't valid logic. It's also very hard to avoid.

I'm not saying that either of the claims in this thread are right or wrong, but a good starting point would be a review of these experiments.

Yes, exactly. Review of the expperiments ist key. They are somewhere here in the forum, I have no idea where. I read it, validated it for myself and went on, I have no idea how to find them again without spending lots of time on it, sorry.

 

[DarrellQ]

Hi I plan on brewing a 5 gallon, all grain, Pliny the Elder kit tomorrow. I will be using Safale US-05 yeast. My question is...should I use one pack or two? Asking because I am unsure if 2 would be overkill and I don't know if that would cause problems.
Thanks
Jim

I brew this often and it always turns-out great. I always oxygenate 2 minutes at .5 ppm, sprinkle in 2 packages of US-05, and seem to have very happy and robust yeast in about 12 hours. OG is usually 1.076, with FG 1.010.

 

[eric19312]

Lot of good information in this webinar from Fermentis.

 

[DarrellQ]

Lot of good information in this webinar from Fermentis.

Wow! Can't argue with a scientific academic study. No need to to rehydrate or oxygenate when using dry yeast, just sprinkle it on top of wort. I admit, I skipped ahead quite a bit, but no mention of using a starter. I wonder what their research says about that?

 

[eric19312]

Wow! Can't argue with a scientific academic study. No need to to rehydrate or oxygenate when using dry yeast, just sprinkle it on top of wort. I admit, I skipped ahead quite a bit, but no mention of using a starter. I wonder what their research says about that?

here is another one. The science is impressive and I think provides some thought provoking results.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Note this screen capture from the webinar. The trials by Fermentis on 3 different yeast strains showed that yeast viability was consistently lower when rehydrated in water vs in wort, and also that higher gravity wort did not reduce viability (in most cases it helped a little). Wow! I would be curious how this applies to other yeast manufacturers' strains.

 

[eric19312]

Note this screen capture from the webinar. The trials by Fermentis on 3 different yeast strains showed that yeast viability was consistently lower when rehydrated in water vs in wort, and also that higher gravity wort did not reduce viability (in most cases it helped a little). Wow! I would be curious how this applies to other yeast manufacturers' strains.

And the words that go along with that slide is pretty close to "the direct pitch in your wort is actually beneficial for your yeast health"
When you combine these results with the agitation (none, moderate, vigorous) during rehydration data presented earlier in the talk I'm convinced the best way to pitch US-05 is direct sprinkle onto the wort.

As you say would be interesting to see same experiments from other dry yeast manufacturers. Lallemand states opposite position when it comes to rehydration of their dry yeast (rehydration following a fairly complex protocol being preferred) but I've not seen data to justify.

 

[KDogg]

I just created this beast of a beer and this was what my numbers were:

OG = 1.074 (mine 1.070 )
FG = 1.014 ( mine1.010 )
ABV = 8.3% (mine 7.88%)

Yeast:
Wyeast 1056 (American Ale) (no pre)

Did I get close? I'd say yes. How could it have reached full attention? Starter? Maybe that would have put it where it needed to be. But I felt fortunate to get this far as this was only my second BIAB adventure and this was a very intense brew day.

 

[VikeMan]

I just created this beast of a beer and this was what my numbers were:

OG = 1.074 (mine 1.070 )
FG = 1.014 ( mine1.010 )
ABV = 8.3% (mine 7.88%)

Yeast:
Wyeast 1056 (American Ale) (no pre)

Did I get close? I'd say yes. How could it have reached full attention? Starter? Maybe that would have put it where it needed to be. But I felt fortunate to get this far as this was only my second BIAB adventure and this was a very intense brew day.

How could it have reached full attenuation? If by full attenuation, you mean the expected (recipe) attenuation...
(74 - 14 ) / 74 = 81% apparent attenuation

And you got...
(70 - 10) / 70 = 86% apparent attenuation.

So, so got higher apparent attenuation than you were expecting. Not less.

Also, 1.074 to 1.014 would be ~7.9% ABV, not 8.3%. You actually managed to get the expected ABV by getting higher apparent attenuation than expected, starting from a lower OG. There's not a lack of attenuation issue here. There may be a mash efficiency issue, or a wort volume issue.

 

[TestTickle]

I just created this beast of a beer and this was what my numbers were:

OG = 1.074 (mine 1.070 )
FG = 1.014 ( mine1.010 )
ABV = 8.3% (mine 7.88%)

Yeast:
Wyeast 1056 (American Ale) (no pre)

Did I get close? I'd say yes. How could it have reached full attention? Starter? Maybe that would have put it where it needed to be. But I felt fortunate to get this far as this was only my second BIAB adventure and this was a very intense brew day.

It attenuated more than what was predicted as it is, so I don't know why you'd want to change anything in regards to that. The lower ABV is a result of the lower OG. If you want to get closer to 8%, adjust your grain bill to account for the lower than expected efficiency.

 

[TestTickle]

@KDogg , what recipe did you use? I'm curious to see the numbers and grain bill.

 

[VikeMan]

The lower ABV is a result of the lower OG.

He got the same ABV as he would have got had he hit his expected OG and FG.

 

[TestTickle]

He got the same ABV as he would have got had he hit his expected OG and FG.

Oh yeah. I think I was stuck on the 8.3% ABV. I don't know, I just woke up.

 

[KDogg]

@KDogg , what recipe did you use? I'm curious to see the numbers and grain bill.

https://byo.com/recipe/russian-river-brewing-co-s-pliny-the-elder-clone/
This is what I worked with, of course some adjustments has to be made in grain bill at homebrew store as they couldn't give my exact amounts and did whatever rounding they had to do but I was in a rush before they closed so maybe that had a little too do with things. Good feedback.

 

[TestTickle]

Depending on what yeast you used and your mash temp, you may have ended up right where you need to be with that OG. Mashing at 150 and using US-05 should end at around 1.010. Depending on the ABV calculator you use, this could be anywhere from 7.9% to 8.2%. For that recipe and assuming you are using US-05, 1.012 FG should be closer to what you would expect. Understand though that attenuation is just an estimate and can be affected by things like temperature, yeast health, pH, etc.