Double IPA Pliny the Elder Clone

[mikeandortina]

My second attempt at this one is in primary now. First attempt was right on. This one comes from MoreBeer.com. They were given this recipie by Vinnie himself.

http://morebeer.com/view_product/18...liny_the_Elder"_Double_IPA_-_Extract_Beer_Kit

Great supplier too (No. I'm not an employee!) They have the kits available for shipping.

 

[doublehaul]

What is everyone's OG and FG and what size of starter/how many yeast packs are you using? I am trying to see what size of starter I need to make (using wyeast 1056). My software is telling me 1.072 OG and 1.018 FG with 75% attenuation. I think I need to get the FG down lower.

 

[RichBenn]

For those going to try the clone, this is the real deal (1st page), handed out from Vinnie at a conference, and can be found at Beerdujoir.com in PDF form.

They don't specify malt/sugar quantities, but rather percentages along with O.G. So one needs to adjust for their own efficiency to hit the 1.070 target.

I've made this several times, and it is pretty much spot on, except for more aromatics in mine vs. the only place near me that serves it draft. Maybe if I got some fresh at the brewery it would be a better test. I love this beer! It needs to be drunk young to appreciate the nuances.

Rumour is Vinnie has changed this recipe over time, for example, adding Amarillo and such. Don't know if that's true or not, but what is brewing without tinkering?

At any rate, this is a "hop candy" beer, and pretty much all light color IIPAs over 100 IBUs calculated get into the realm of "hop candy". For those that like maltiness, look elsewhere....

Oh, and I looked up the city water profile where Russian River Brewing is, and adjusted my water profile to match. Might make a difference, who knows.

 

[fifthcircle]

What is everyone's OG and FG and what size of starter/how many yeast packs are you using? I am trying to see what size of starter I need to make (using wyeast 1056). My software is telling me 1.072 OG and 1.018 FG with 75% attenuation. I think I need to get the FG down lower.

OG 1.070
FG I forget...lol
I used a 1600ml starter, with one vial of yeast, 24hrs after starting the starter. The batch was going nuts by 12hrs. No need for two packets if you make a good starter.

 

[ibpick]

I have seen two responses to the " when toads corn sugar" question. In one of the recipes from vinnie he states to "add corn sugar and bring to boil." I have also seen instructions to add corn sugar the last 10 minutes of boil. Any thoughts? 2nd question is for the hop additions at flame out. Do those stay in just while it is cooling down or do they transfer to fermenter? Brewin this weekend. Thanks!

 

[ibpick]

I have seen two responses to the " when toads corn sugar" question. In one of the recipes from vinnie he states to "add corn sugar and bring to boil." I have also seen instructions to add corn sugar the last 10 minutes of boil. Any thoughts? 2nd question is for the hop additions at flame out. Do those stay in just while it is cooling down or do they transfer to fermenter? Brewin this weekend. Thanks!

That's "when to add" not toads.

 

[fifthcircle]

Hah, toads....

Sugar.
I added for the full boil. I don't think it will effect anything if you add it later. There is some adjustment for hop utilization in regard to gravity, but I doubt anyone could tell on a small scale brew.

Flame out hops.
Add at the very end of boil, ie: when you are terminating the heat source. These hops do NOT go into the fermenter. Just keep them in while you whirlpool or chill etc.

 

[ibpick]

Perfect thanks!

 

[mooshimanx]

To add to the above, I add my corn sugar a little bit after I throw a Whirlfloc in the boil and right before I throw the chiller into the boil to sanitize it. I have my doubts there is any difference. The only reason I've ever read to not just throw it in directly at the beginning is due to the possibility of caramelizing the sugar which I personally think is highly unlikely, but I just did it that way because why not.

To my tastes (and I regularly drink Pliny at local watering holes), this beer tastes extremely similar to the commercial beer when properly fermented and with the right yeast and hop character. I won't say its indistinguishable since I didn't do a side-by-side, however.

I'm not sure why the OP says to use 12 lbs. of 2 row and .5 of the Carapils/C40. The amount should be 13.25 2 row and .6 of the Carapils/C40 because it is a 6 gallon batch designed to yield 5 gallons of finished beer. If you brew less than a 6 gallon batch, you will end up with something like 4 gallons and change due to the loss of wort/beer to hop trub in both the boil and the dry hop. I personally bumped the 2 row to 14 pounds and I still undershot the gravity by ~2-4 points, but that's just because I always get lower 70s efficiency.

 

[LAbrewer]

Hah, toads....

Sugar.
I added for the full boil. I don't think it will effect anything if you add it later. There is some adjustment for hop utilization in regard to gravity, but I doubt anyone could tell on a small scale brew.

Flame out hops.
Add at the very end of boil, ie: when you are terminating the heat source. These hops do NOT go into the fermenter. Just keep them in while you whirlpool or chill etc.

Why not?

 

[LAbrewer]

I'm going to brew this tomorrow and need to know if I'm prepared. Does this look right?

- Add dextrose at last 15 minutes of boil along with moss and chiller
- Use actual AA from http://beerdujour.com/recipes/1pliny the elder clone pdf.pdf on 90, 45 and 30 minute additions and weighed amounts in the OP on all of the rest.
- 0.5L followed by 1.8L starter of WLP001
- 5.5 gallons in the keggle after the 90 minute boil assuming 73% efficiency and 77% attenuation (brewers friend). Try to strain the hops to 5.25 in the fermenter.
- Transfer 5 days after terminal gravity
- Batch sparge mash starting at 152 (assuming) 1 degree loss.
- first dry hops added in a fine bag to the keg.
- second dry hops added in a tea ball.

 

[fifthcircle]

Why not?

I assume you are asking why not put the flame out hops in the fermenter....

My answer would be, it'll make it funky. LOL
Hops used in the boil kettle, no matter at what stage, are always filtered out prior to fermentation. If not, I would guess that you would get a very grassy tasting beer. Same reason most folks don't dry hop for longer than 14days.
Then again, I'm no expert! I just do what is the norm, and drink too much beer

Your recipe looks good, but a little confusing being out of order in your post.

Try to end up with 6gal in the primary fermenter. The trub loss in primary, and the dry hops soaking up beer in secondary will result in a 5gal total yield of drinkable brew. Just sparge a bit more to get what you need, pre-boil.

Also, don't let the AA content, and resulting IBU's scare you. I used hop shots for bittering. Calculated to 150IBU. Its not bitter. Its just perfect to balance out all that grain, resulting in a great IPA.

Good luck!
Kurt

 

[mooshimanx]

Why not?

Because flameout hops are still a hot-side technique. Putting hops into the fermenter is dry-hopping, which is not advisable due to the fact that the volatile aromatics will just blow off when the yeast off-gas CO2.

Flameout hops and Dry Hops are not the same thing and they don't DO the same thing in the beer, even if they are both considered "aroma" additions.

I'm going to brew this tomorrow and need to know if I'm prepared. Does this look right?

- Add dextrose at last 15 minutes of boil along with moss and chiller
- Use actual AA from http://beerdujour.com/recipes/1pliny the elder clone pdf.pdf on 90, 45 and 30 minute additions and weighed amounts in the OP on all of the rest.
- 0.5L followed by 1.8L starter of WLP001
- 5.5 gallons in the keggle after the 90 minute boil assuming 73% efficiency and 77% attenuation (brewers friend). Try to strain the hops to 5.25 in the fermenter.
- Transfer 5 days after terminal gravity
- Batch sparge mash starting at 152 (assuming) 1 degree loss.
- first dry hops added in a fine bag to the keg.
- second dry hops added in a tea ball.

You're going to hit that IBU solubility barrier here, so I wouldn't be particularly worried about IBU adjustment. In Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil Zainasheff has a very similar recipe derived from the Pliny recipe and he specifically recommends not substituting any hops for AA%s. He doesn't explain exactly why but I think it is because 3.5 oz. of Columbus at practically any AA% is going to contribute calculated IBUs in the 200s, which is beyond the level bitterness can really get into the beer.

You want to scale this to a 6 gallon recipe, which is why the base malt should be 13.25 lbs and the Crystal and Carapils should be .6 lbs. You will lose a large amount of beer to absorption from the hops and dry hops.

 

[LAbrewer]

I assume you are asking why not put the flame out hops in the fermenter....

My answer would be, it'll make it funky. LOL
Hops used in the boil kettle, no matter at what stage, are always filtered out prior to fermentation. If not, I would guess that you would get a very grassy tasting beer. Same reason most folks don't dry hop for longer than 14days.
Then again, I'm no expert! I just do what is the norm, and drink too much beer

Your recipe looks good, but a little confusing being out of order in your post.

Try to end up with 6gal in the primary fermenter. The trub loss in primary, and the dry hops soaking up beer in secondary will result in a 5gal total yield of drinkable brew. Just sparge a bit more to get what you need, pre-boil.

Also, don't let the AA content, and resulting IBU's scare you. I used hop shots for bittering. Calculated to 150IBU. Its not bitter. Its just perfect to balance out all that grain, resulting in a great IPA.

Good luck!
Kurt

Because flameout hops are still a hot-side technique. Putting hops into the fermenter is dry-hopping, which is not advisable due to the fact that the volatile aromatics will just blow off when the yeast off-gas CO2.

Flameout hops and Dry Hops are not the same thing and they don't DO the same thing in the beer, even if they are both considered "aroma" additions.


You're going to hit that IBU solubility barrier here, so I wouldn't be particularly worried about IBU adjustment. In Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil Zainasheff has a very similar recipe derived from the Pliny recipe and he specifically recommends not substituting any hops for AA%s. He doesn't explain exactly why but I think it is because 3.5 oz. of Columbus at practically any AA% is going to contribute calculated IBUs in the 200s, which is beyond the level bitterness can really get into the beer.

You want to scale this to a 6 gallon recipe, which is why the base malt should be 13.25 lbs and the Crystal and Carapils should be .6 lbs. You will lose a large amount of beer to absorption from the hops and dry hops.

Well It looks like I'm headed for disaster because I dumped about 75% of the hops in the fermenter. :cross:

Next time I think I will siphon because I got plugged while trying to filter the junk and had to scrape the bottom and let it all go. I'm not too worried about that though because it will only be there for about 10 to 14 days. My real concern is getting only 1.063 after I got 1.050 preboil. It doesn't seem to add up. I got 7.1 gal down to about 5.7 gal and my calculations told me I should be higher in the end.

 

[fifthcircle]

Well It looks like I'm headed for disaster because I dumped about 75% of the hops in the fermenter. :cross:

Next time I think I will siphon because I got plugged while trying to filter the junk and had to scrape the bottom and let it all go. I'm not too worried about that though because it will only be there for about 10 to 14 days. My real concern is getting only 1.063 after I got 1.050 preboil. It doesn't seem to add up. I got 7.1 gal down to about 5.7 gal and my calculations told me I should be higher in the end.

Yeah, just roll with it. Maybe rack to secondary as early as possible.

 

[hbr2547]

Yeah, just roll with it. Maybe rack to secondary as early as possible.

Subscribed

 

[mooshimanx]

Yeah, just roll with it. Maybe rack to secondary as early as possible.

My personal opinion (and this is taste-subjective) is that for IPAs dropping all the trub into the fermenter doens't really mean anything so long as you can chill/let it all settle out. It mostly affects (to me, again) the appearance and not the taste since it stays hazy for a bit longer when you have a ton of trub in the fermenter flying around during the ferment.

If it makes people feel better, I drink real Pliny with some regularity at a local watering hole that has it on draft 70% of the time. It is not always a clear beer. It sometimes looks full on filtered (they centrifuge, I believe, but I know they treat bottles and draft differently, so I can't for certain specify), but just as often it looks slightly hazy. Don't sweat it. If you give the beer to someone that can appreciate its flavor and aroma they won't care about the clarity at all.

(Full disclosure, I made this with whole hops, but a lot of the broken down bits made it through the bazooka tube)

 

[LAbrewer]

I crashed mine yesterday with gelatin. Tasted like a grapefruit bomb toward the end of fermentation. Now it's a little less acidic bitter and it has a honey like taste. Still really bitter though.

 

[Stokes_]

Bookmarked. Thanks for posting.

 

[doublehaul]

How critical is the second dry hop? I'm in a 5 gallon secondary and the first round hasn't even soaked up yet' and I doubt another round would even get wet.

Also - I put the hops in the fermenter loose because I couldn't squeeze the 3oz hop bag through the hole. There's got to be a better way to dry hop
My columbus was pellets, so there's a ton of debris in the beer now. Any advice on filtering this when I keg? I just have an auto siphon.

Tasted great - real grapefruity. My OG was 1.070 and I'm at 1.012 right now.

 

[mooshimanx]

How critical is the second dry hop? I'm in a 5 gallon secondary and the first round hasn't even soaked up yet' and I doubt another round would even get wet.

Also - I put the hops in the fermenter loose because I couldn't squeeze the 3oz hop bag through the hole. There's got to be a better way to dry hop
My columbus was pellets, so there's a ton of debris in the beer now. Any advice on filtering this when I keg? I just have an auto siphon.

Tasted great - real grapefruity. My OG was 1.070 and I'm at 1.012 right now.

I use a Auto-Siphon with a hop bag over the tip. I did it with whole flowers as well and while I was pleased with the result of the beer, even with a 6 gallon batch I ended up with ~4.25 gallons of beer due to loss in the dry hop. As you did, I skipped the second dry hop due to the fact I couldn't fit anything else in the carboy.

 

[MTate37]

I brewed a 2.5G extract version of this last Thursday. My volume came out to about 2.75G because I'm a noob and haven't been able to get my volume right on a full boil recipe yet.

Anyway, I used Mr. Malty's recommended starter size and within about 6 hours I was racing to get a blowoff tube on my 3G carboy. There was a fair amount of blowoff and it looks like most of the krausen has fallen, but there is still some foam on the surface. I was planning to take a gravity reading tomorrow and again on Sunday, hoping to start the first dryhop if readings are stable and the rest of the krausen has fallen.

Since I don't have another properly sized container for this batch I was just planning to dryhop in primary. Is this a good idea or should I find something else to dryhop in? If the krausen hasn't fallen and I'm getting stable gravity readings should I wait to dryhop?

Since this is only my sixth batch, and first clone attempt, taste is what really matters to me. Clarity would be a bonus, but isn't a concern.

Thanks!

 

[LAbrewer]

I brewed a 2.5G extract version of this last Thursday. My volume came out to about 2.75G because I'm a noob and haven't been able to get my volume right on a full boil recipe yet.

Anyway, I used Mr. Malty's recommended starter size and within about 6 hours I was racing to get a blowoff tube on my 3G carboy. There was a fair amount of blowoff and it looks like most of the krausen has fallen, but there is still some foam on the surface. I was planning to take a gravity reading tomorrow and again on Sunday, hoping to start the first dryhop if readings are stable and the rest of the krausen has fallen.

Since I don't have another properly sized container for this batch I was just planning to dryhop in primary. Is this a good idea or should I find something else to dryhop in? If the krausen hasn't fallen and I'm getting stable gravity readings should I wait to dryhop?

Since this is only my sixth batch, and first clone attempt, taste is what really matters to me. Clarity would be a bonus, but isn't a concern.

Thanks!

Primary is good if you are using pellets. I'd recommend a bag or a secondary for dh if using whole.

Wait until it's done fermenting to dh. krausen will drop. Check gravity if it's at day 8 if you want or just roll for another week or so.

 

[springtime]

Just received another extract Pliny the elder clone kit from Ausitn Homebrew. The first one I had brewed came out so incredibly good I cannot be without it. I have three bottles of Pliney arriving at my house this Monday and will do a side by side tasting at some point next week. I highly recommend the AHB pliny kit. I will keep you all posted on the tasting once completed.

 

[eastoak]

one thing i have not seen mention in this thread is the fact that RR uses hop extract to bitter Pliny (and other beers). this is not a secret, lots of breweries are using hop extract for bittering, nor am i knocking RR for doing it, the quality of the bittering is going to be hard to replicate at home. i bought some hop extract (hop union product) to see where that takes me when i attempt my Pliny clone.

 

[mooshimanx]

one thing i have not seen mention in this thread is the fact that RR uses hop extract to bitter Pliny (and other beers). this is not a secret, lots of breweries are using hop extract for bittering, nor am i knocking RR for doing it, the quality of the bittering is going to be hard to replicate at home. i bought some hop extract (hop union product) to see where that takes me when i attempt my Pliny clone.

The regular non-extracted recipe that Vinnie gives out tastes pretty much identical to commercial Pliny the Elder to my palate. The reason he uses hop extract is to avoid having to use the sheer vegetal mass (which can give a touch of chlorophyll or veggie taste), but I haven't really noticed a flavor like even boiling three and a half ounces of Columbus for 90 minutes. I think its hard to notice it with the amount of bitterness and hop flavor.

 

[fifthcircle]

I used "hop shots" when I brewed it a while back. Left a little sticky residue on the top of my kettle and immersion chiller. Other than that, I guess it worked. The beer seems pretty balanced, and not too bitter. I was actually surprised that it wasn't bitter...with all those calculated IBUs!

 

[Gear101]

Just received another extract Pliny the elder clone kit from Ausitn Homebrew. The first one I had brewed came out so incredibly good I cannot be without it. I have three bottles of Pliney arriving at my house this Monday and will do a side by side tasting at some point next week. I highly recommend the AHB pliny kit. I will keep you all posted on the tasting once completed.

It's like a 70 dollar kit, but if it comes out good, as most of his kits do?!?! Cheers

 

[Jeffro74]

Gonna brew this one this Saturday. Looking over the brewing instructions, though, it says to chill the wort to 67 degrees before pitching the yeast and then to double pitch or make a starter.

Is this instruction just to make sure the temperature doesn't get too high to prevent off flavors?!? He mentions in that PDF not wanting any diectyl (sp?)... could that be a reason for the cold chill?

 

[chumpsteak]

You should always try to chill your wort to below 70 before you pitch. Get in the habit and you will have less off flavors and better beer.