PLEASE let the Northern Brewer buy-out be a hoax!

[VVbrewery]

NB is dead to me. I'll use my LHBS, Adventure in Homebrewing, and Morebeer

NB IS our LHBS. They drove almost all of the others out of business when they came to Milwaukee. The last couple of times I've gone there they had almost nothing I needed in stock so I'll probably get most everything from Farmhouse etc. but shipping on sacks of grain is too pricey.

 

[WaltStarr]

Meh, I'll still occasionally shop at NB but will mostly buy from my LHBS or Morebeer. I will admit to not turning down a free Inbev product or two. You have to go pretty far off the grid to completely isolate yourself from corporations.

Actually, I've found it exceedingly easy to completely isolate myself from any corporation whose business practices I disagree with. You simply stop purchasing the products they produce or products made with the products they produce.

It's called "speaking with your wallet" and it's a time honored American consumer practice.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I must have no soul, because if I built a business and could sell to a large company for millions I'd cash out so quickly the front door would blow off the hinges as I exited the building. And I'd be too busy making beer or camping in my new pimped out RV (courtesy of my newly acquired wealth) that I wouldn't bother reading posts on internet forums saying "he's dead to me" for being a corporate sell-out.

 

[WaltStarr]

I must have no soul, because if I built a business and could sell to a large company for millions I'd cash out so quickly the front door would blow off the hinges as I exited the building. And I'd be too busy making beer or camping in my new pimped out RV (courtesy of my newly acquired wealth) that I wouldn't bother reading posts on internet forums saying "he's dead to me" for being a corporate sell-out.

I would do the same. Doesn't mean I would purchase anything from the resulting corporation, though.

 

[BentBrewer]

I live in Sonora and Modesto has the closest homebrew store (Barley and Wine), which is about 50 miles/1 hour away.

Yeah, you're in that dark hole of 'can't get there from here' in CA. I love riding my bikes around there, but 49 is a tedious 50MPH route crowded with tourists and CHP, and the other routes while amazing to ride, take many more hours.

Auburn is nice. Have you been to Knee Deep? I'm still looking for an excuse to drive the 2 1/2 hours to check it out. Love Lupulin River when I can get it fresh.

Yeah, we drop in to Knee Deep when we're oot and aboot in Auburn. Not being a hop fiend, I only drink a couple of their beers.

Sort of OT for this thread but I also recommend Auburn Alehouse.

As Kaplanfx mentions though, we also have Auburn Alehouse. Plus Moonraker, and now Crooked Lane. 18 miles away, is Cool Beerworks (3 miles away from me. Guess where I hang out? ) Jack Russel Brewing has opened a tasting room in Placerville, so you don't have to make the drive to Camino anymore either. Mraz in Folsom is just down the road in Folsom.
Come visit!

Great what's next..., white labs and wyeast?

It would probably make sense to them. Remember: you predicted it first!

Farmhouse has been my go to since then! Great products, great service & reasonable shipping, plus John is a stand up guy!

Another thumb up for Farmhouse. As I mentioned before, the shipping turnaround time from NB was so long, I switched to Farmhouse a while back. Easier website to use too, IMHO.
Now, about those flimsy plastic double bags that I can hardly read the writing on...

 

[bruteforce]

They're an evil corporation bent on getting profits rather than making malted grain simply for the love of the craft.

Yep. That was the joke. They're huge with tentacles in many areas.

 

[r8rphan]

I must have no soul, because if I built a business and could sell to a large company for millions I'd cash out so quickly the front door would blow off the hinges as I exited the building. And I'd be too busy making beer or camping in my new pimped out RV (courtesy of my newly acquired wealth) that I wouldn't bother reading posts on internet forums saying "he's dead to me" for being a corporate sell-out.

Werd!

 

[Dizzey]

If prices go up, Customers go away.

I was wondering. I feel like they would definitely have to be careful about it. Two, three years from now they could be completely different but I would imagine for the next six months they will try to keep changes minimal.

There is a lot of animosity towards mega-chain, specifically Anhauser-Busch, in the craft beer/homebrew community, right? So they have to know theyre on thin ice with regards to changing anything.

Realistically, I dont see why they would have to change anything, but I know they will in order to lower prices on their end. I think they bought it to tap the market/break in, just to make money from it, not necessarily out of any malicious intent.

I read somewhere, some sort of pew research type report, that suggested that the trend of businesses going year after year trying to hit bigger sales, bigger profits, higher margins while lowering costs, pay, whatever to achieve more savings, all that actually hinders businesses, and becomes like an achilles heel. When you see something like this buyout, you can kind of visualize how it happens. There's no reason for them to change a thing, but they will.

 

[hairymare]

I want American or Canadian malt and I'm pretty sure they'll be selling us malt from China. I'm pretty sure they wart to capitalize on us and if you care about the quality of your ingredients you are going to have to brew your own recipes with ingredients you know the source of. Especially with malt extracts. Big bummer. After a number of years, when people no longer know the difference, or forget and with the power to annihilate the little competition we will be stuck .

 

[Dizzey]

I see. The thing is, my LHBS doesnt display where the malts came from anyway. I could ask, but I'm sure it's just the big maltsters like Briess or something. I just made a mash tun and did my first all grain batch yesterday so Im not too sure how much grain quality affects the outcome, especially over proper procedures like sanitation, aeration, and storage. I do care about quality and not getting ripped off though, and I agree with you on something like a*mega-corporation wanting to capitalize on people with lower quality and higher prices(proportionally).

It's called "speaking with your wallet" and it's a time honored American consumer practice.

It's not really, though, because what companies do is buy other companies but dont ever re-brand; kind of like how General Mills owns like, 90% of all the cereals in the cereal aisle. Youre buying Cheerios because you hate the ****ing Fruit Loops company, but youre still paying General Mills in the end, regardless of which you go with. Unless you specifically buy something like "Locally Owned Hippie Oats!" But even then, when youre standing in the cereal aisle, you dont really know if Hippie Oats sold out to General Mills years ago, so it's still a gamble.

 

[WaltStarr]

It's not really, though, because what companies do is buy other companies but dont ever re-brand; kind of like how General Mills owns like, 90% of all the cereals in the cereal aisle. Youre buying Cheerios because you hate the ****ing Fruit Loops company, but youre still paying General Mills in the end, regardless of which you go with. Unless you specifically buy something like "Locally Owned Hippie Oats!" But even then, when youre standing in the cereal aisle, you dont really know if Hippie Oats sold out to General Mills years ago, so it's still a gamble.

It really is. Informed consumers know who owns what. Don't blame me if other consumers are too lazy to figure out where the products they purchase come from.

I haven't purchased a Koch Industries product in decades even though nearly every company they own do not hold the Koch Industries name on anything they produce.

 

[DerCribben]

Sounds like a general canned response to me. I wouldn't read so much into it

Sure am glad nobody jumped to any crazy conclusions

 

[hairymare]

i believe the country of Origin should be on the large bags of malt. It's the repackaged stuff that you don't know where the hell its coming from

And, I suspect with the electric automation machines being developed and coming down in pricethat pretty soon beer making machines will be in many homes, much like bread machines. There's already push button beer machines. Slightly out of the average joes price but I think the handwriting is on the wall and we've become a threat. Also, everything they sell to drink is **** and if you want a decent beer you have to pay a bit. Lots of people drink the cheap ****, I don't know how they can with the corn, rice and chemicals but people are becoming more sophisticated and want something better. Look at all the craft beers that have been taken over and destroyed and it's become difficult to even know what's up when you shop. Smoke and mirrors until you taste it and know you got screwed. Lol

 

[hairymare]

First the elections now this! Lol we are like the Bernie sanders of beer. They don't want a third party.

 

[Dizzey]

It really is. Informed consumers know who owns what. Don't blame me if other consumers are too lazy to figure out where the products they purchase come from.
.

Nah I meant that it's not a time honored tradition in America. Im with you on that, I agree with your point, but most people are either too lazy to look it up or, more often, dont care enough to look up who owns what or boycott a product or service. I mean look at companies like Time-Warner or AT&T, people hate them but they still are the only game in town (they aren't but they basically run the show).

But for all the people who are mad about corporations, and Im one of them, I think if you're old enough to drink youre old enough to understand the perspective of work, and what must go into starting up, running, and owning your own business, the thoughts you have when weighing your options and all. You cant really blame the dude for being a sell-out, whenever that occurred.

 

[jjeffers09]

ARrrrr - 2016 sucks...

 

[Dangeruss]

NB is my lhbs. Curious how the breweries in St . Paul and MPLS will react to this. Wild Minds is 4 minute drive from there and Bad Weather is close to the stpaul location and I know for a fact they utilize them on a regular basis

 

[beernutz]

Actually, I've found it exceedingly easy to completely isolate myself from any corporation whose business practices I disagree with. You simply stop purchasing the products they produce or products made with the products they produce.

It's called "speaking with your wallet" and it's a time honored American consumer practice.

Thanks for responding to something I didn't say!

 

[WaltStarr]

Nah I meant that it's not a time honored tradition in America.

It ABSOLUTELY is a time honored tradition in America. How many people regularly refuse to do business with companies that piss them off? This is LITERALLY what started a revolution against the English. The East India Company was granted a monopoly on tea by the Crown. To enforce this monopoly, colonists were forced to purchase tax stamps for any tea not sold by the East India Company.

In reaction to these business practices by a corporation, Massachusetts colonists snuck on board an East India Company ship and threw the cargo of tea into Boston Harbor!

Thanks for responding to something I didn't say!

My apologies. I hit "Quote" on the wrong post.

 

[thatfatbastard]

I see. The thing is, my LHBS doesnt display where the malts came from anyway. I could ask, but I'm sure it's just the big maltsters like Briess or something.

If they won't tell you (and they should) then you should ask. Otherwise you're probably paying a premium for the cheapest malt that they can pawn off on you.

I've had distributors tell me that I should just generically label my malt so that I can just give out whatever I feel like needs to be moved at that time. But that doesn't sit right with me and I like to give my customers a choice.

 

[WaltStarr]

If they won't tell you (and they should) then you should ask. Otherwise you're probably paying a premium for the cheapest malt that they can pawn off on you.

I've had distributors tell me that I should just generically label my malt so that I can just give out whatever I feel like needs to be moved at that time. But that doesn't sit right with me and I like to give my customers a choice.

Does your shop have a web site? I like how you do business.

Edited: A quick Google of the name in your avatar sufficed. Thanks!

 

[thatfatbastard]

We do, www.southernhillshomebrew.com, but we don't really do mail order (unless you really want to).

Also, we are in the process of changing our POS and ecommerce software, so inventory levels on the website are not to be believed. We've also added about 50 products recently that aren't listed on the website.

I'm a one man shop, so I have to work on that stuff in my "free time".

 

[ericbw]

I see. The thing is, my LHBS doesnt display where the malts came from anyway. I could ask, but I'm sure it's just the big maltsters like Briess or something. I just made a mash tun and did my first all grain batch yesterday so Im not too sure how much grain quality affects the outcome, especially over proper procedures like sanitation, aeration, and storage. I do care about quality and not getting ripped off though, and I agree with you on something like a*mega-corporation wanting to capitalize on people with lower quality and higher prices(proportionally).



It's not really, though, because what companies do is buy other companies but dont ever re-brand; kind of like how General Mills owns like, 90% of all the cereals in the cereal aisle. Youre buying Cheerios because you hate the ****ing Fruit Loops company, but youre still paying General Mills in the end, regardless of which you go with. Unless you specifically buy something like "Locally Owned Hippie Oats!" But even then, when youre standing in the cereal aisle, you dont really know if Hippie Oats sold out to General Mills years ago, so it's still a gamble.

Or, a novel approach might be to buy cereal you like or is healthy, and not worry if it's the Corp you hate. Froot Loops are awesome.

 

[brewcat]

Hopefully it is a good thing for consumers. I've been a NB customer ever since I started brewing. At the moment, I don't plan to change. But I'll probably check out some other companies.

I'm happy for the guys that are going to get a nice sum. They should be proud that the business grew so much to warrant such an offer.

 

[iioan]

Hopefully it is a good thing for consumers. I've been a NB customer ever since I started brewing. At the moment, I don't plan to change. But I'll probably check out some other companies.

I'm happy for the guys that are going to get a nice sum. They should be proud that the business grew so much to warrant such an offer.

I think in the short term it will be. If I had to guess they will drop prices ridiculously across the board to squeeze out any mid-range retailers. They will take a loss but they can handle it without issue. Then either acquire those retailers or let them go under. At the same time they will either start a wholesale division or buy one and aggressively price that as well with LHBS. Go around and pick off more and more manufactures or force them into exclusivity deals with their wholesale division to force the hand of LHBS buying from them. If done well within a few short years they control the industry top to bottom, online and local. After that they can sneak prices back up. That's what happens in other industries so I would predict that will happen in this one.

 

[Jwin]

Here's the lowdown on NB MW ownership

http://www.bizjournals.com/twinciti...ewery-suppliers-land-investment.html?page=all

Investment firms either buy with the intention to grow a business then sale, or liquidate property. A move like this was David Kidd's endgame all along.

 

[UncleLankyFrank]

This entire thread should be deleted and an apology issued to Northern Brewer.

I really didn't want this to be true. I apologized personally.

 

[UncleLankyFrank]

I can confirm it's true.

All employees were rounded up, told the news and threatened to keep quiet, they don't want anyone to know.��

Few things that start with people being rounded up ever end well.

 

[UncleLankyFrank]

Great what's next..., white labs and wyeast?

True story: Monsanto has sued farmers whose crops are shown to be cross-pollinated with Monsanto proprietary grain. How much of a stretch is it to imagine AB/InBev/SAB/Miller/Coors/notMillerCoors trying to shore up not only access to yeast strains but buying or creating BIOPATENTS on those strains? If we've imagined it, they're already looking into it. If they can't legally do it (yet), then they will lobby to make it legal.

When Monsanto does it, it's to "share knowledge and technology to advance scientific understanding". If a foreign-owned company does this, it's biological warfare... like, defacto

 

[UncleLankyFrank]

Wow. I gotta admit, when I first posted in this thread, I was extremely skeptical. Sounded like goofy internet conspiracies.

First off, I can tell you are over 30, cuz you don't accept the Interwebz as a primary news source! This is the main reason I kept quiet for almost 2 weeks. I knew all I had to do was drop a pebble in this pond and the ripples would eventually find the shore.

I owe OP and anyone else confirming the tale an apology. Sorry for not taking you seriously, internet friends.

Nah, ya don't. Skepticism is a chief virtue, held in high esteem by great sages like Samuel Clemens. You SHOULD always suspect the motivation of somebody telling tall tales. Like I said in the original post "PLEASE let the Northern Brewer buy-out be a hoax!" But amazingly the Interwebz has once again shown the power and speed of information available to anybody with a phone in their pocket!

That said, this doesn't really change anything for me.

This reminds me of the Regan years, when his prune-faced mother, I mean wife... wait, didn't he call her "mommy"? I regress... The crack-down on domestic marijuana growing essentially forced growers to find other, more efficient means of producing plants. This can be seen as the call-to-arms for home brewers to form co-ops (as mentioned) and liberate themselves from the need for a middle-man.

 

[UncleLankyFrank]

Hey, corporations are people too!

The exact quote is "Corporations are people, MY FRIEND" . If you don't say "my friend" I don't know you're being sincere. When people feel compelled to begin their statements with "Honestly" or "To tell you the truth", I assume they have to make a distinction between when they are and aren't telling the truth (or speaking to friends or... what's opposite of friends?)

 

[UncleLankyFrank]

InBev bought NB so they could learn to brew beer.

The first glimmer of what's happening right now actually appeared as a joke in response to a November 2011 article about Bud Light Platinum being released specifically (unironically) to pit against the craft brewing market. Funny and pathetic. We all know how well that worked and why it will never work.

Anheuser-Busch InBev Develops New Craft Beer

But one prescient commenter, Adam Woehler, quipt ironically (coincidentally?):

"Will they be working closely with Northern Brewer to create a clone kit of this fine 'craft' beer?"

FIRST VOLLEY:

The Budweiser Superbowl ad. Watch it again if you haven't in awhile. Pause on the micro-glass tasting and see how many homo/nerdo-phobic tropes you can identify. Budweiser is clearly lampooning craft beer and craft beer drinkers. All the while they keep assimilating craft breweries like 10-Barrel, Goose Island, etc... after failing to crack the craft beer market with their own products like Black Crown (and now with the MillerCoors merger, the mostly failed Miller (un)Fortune(ate)).

SECOND VOLLEY:

Northern Brewer takes a swing at the playground bully with their Peach Pumpkin Ale. Defying the smug dismissal and challenging home brewers to see for themselves if their own beer is better or worse than what Budweiser lampoons.

Poster Produced within 24 hours of Budweiser commercial:

COUP DE GRACE!

This is NOT a case of if'n ya can't beat 'em, join 'em! This is case of a voracious megacoporation-run-amok, trampling through the beer industry like a Kaiju through Tokyo in a Toho film. Except it has escaped Brazil or Belgium, or where ever the hell it came from... and has now rampaged over Africa, Europe and thee United States of God Bless America!

...and guess what? Everybody who works in the United States for a company owned by AB/Inbev/Mechakaiju are now off shore labor just like the Chinese. Have fun chewing on that

 

[UncleLankyFrank]

This is LITERALLY what started a revolution against the English. The East India Company was granted a monopoly on tea by the Crown. To enforce this monopoly, colonists were forced to purchase tax stamps for any tea not sold by the East India Company.

RETCON!

A new original manuscript of the Massachusetts Declaration of 1774 has surfaced in which the original complaint regarded taxation on a shipment of the East India Company being held in harbor by the British until duty was paid on the cargo. Turns out it was Ale not tea and, by virtue of ownership, was Dutch East India Ale.

Disseminate!



See You CAN believe what you read on the internet!

 

[UncleLankyFrank]

Keep in mind that the press release states that AB InBev is "partnering" and that the terms of the partnership have not been disclosed. A little too soon to draw conclusions as to complete takeover. The piece did mention that AB InBev favors 100% acquisitions of small breweries; no idea if their equity subsidiary will insist on the same for NB.

ZX Ventures... such a transparent, non-evasive, last-entry-in-the-phone-book name! :smack:

The pattern is pretty solid, buyout with promises of creative control or blad-diddy-blah. Then, within a year or two, the people whose passion built the business eventually bail.

Goose Island Brewpubs brewmaster leaving to start new Chicago brewery

It comes down to this. Normal people do not think and feel as coldly and cynically as a corporate business does. There is no central conscience to govern its behavior. Like a great white shark, it's more amoral than immoral. It doesn't mean malice toward you as it eats you; you are just food. But then again, I guess that's just what cancer thinks.

 

[UncleLankyFrank]

If you wonder about InBev's motives for acquiring Norther Brewer, let's take a look at the man with the plan: ZX Venture's "Global VP of Homebrewing" (really? drumroll...) Cassiano Hissnauer!

According to LinkedIn (the one time ever it has been useful for anything) his Education includes (in reverse order):

Northwestern University - Kellogg School of Management
Management
2015 – 2015

University of Virginia Darden School of Business
Management
2014 – 2014

Massachusetts Institute of Technology - Sloan School of Management
Management
2013 – 2013

University of Michigan
Management
2012 – 2012

INSEAD
Management
2006 – 2006

University of Pennsylvania - The Wharton School
management
2006 – 2006

Escola de Engenharia Mauá
bachelor, Mechanical engineering
2000 – 2006


His professional experience, again from LinkedIn (gor blessya):

Experience

Anheuser-Busch InBev
ABI International BU President

Anheuser-Busch InBev
January 2014 – Present (2 years 10 months)
Global Procurement VP

AB-InBev
July 2010 – December 2013 (3 years 6 months)Belgium

Anheuser-Busch InBev - APAC
Procurement VP

Anheuser-Busch InBev - APAC
2008 – December 2010 (2 years)

AmBev
Procurement Director

AmBev
2006 – 2008 (2 years)

Ambev
GMT - trainee 1997

Ambev
1997 – 1998 (1 year)

...which is to say, all this guy has ever done with his life is to work for AmBev/InBev/SAB/Miller/Coors. His specialty is "Procurement" as in... "Bring me the head of John the Baptist on a platter" or "bring me Kylo Ren so I can complete his training"

He is quoted with such corporate-speak as “ZX Ventures is excited to enter the homebrew space to help Northern Brewer to grow” Like my first priority is to get your daughter home right after the dance.

Now here is the creepy part that you should all sit up and take notice of. Worse than anything from Paranormal Activity...

Cassiano Hissnauer also remarked on how Northern Brewer “has built an extraordinary network and community of homebrewers.”

That's you!

You are the community and, more insidiously, YOU are the "extraordinary network" which means along with the business, the inventory and the property...

They also now have YOUR contact info.

If you gave Northern Brewer your phone number,

your email address,

your HOME address...

your CREDIT CARD number?

Yeah...

InBev has ALLLLLLLLLL of that.

Sleep tight.

p.s. Did I miss something about home brewing in his dossier?

 

[WaltStarr]

Not too worried about the info they have. Got their latest email and unsubscribed.

 

[mjdonnelly68]

From the horse's mouth:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/learn/farleys-feature-brewing-exciting-future/

 

[ericbw]

They have your email address and that's a big concern?

Make most of your purchases from a local store when you can. Buy from various online sources when you have to. It's not the end of the world.

You should have been doing that already.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

I really want to give them a break, I mean, if I built a business & somebody came along & offered me an amount of money that meant I could do what I wanted, when I wanted & would never have to work another day for the rest of my life if I didn't want to; I'd probably take the money too.

Now that being said, as a customer, homebrewer & craft beer/cider/wine/mead lover, I kind of feel like Norther Brewer/Midwest Supply not only sold out, but sold out to the enemy. To me, InBev stands for everything you DON'T want in a brewer. Faceless, corporate beer (which mostly sucks ass BTW), the lowest common denominator, marketed to "the Proles," (read Orwell's 1984) who have been conditioned to not only like that corporate swill, but dislike craft beer. Is InBev going to do to the homebrew supply biz what they did to beer brewing? Who's next on their list? Austin Homebrew? Briess Malt? Hop farm after hop farm?

Let's consider their plan:

"A disruptive innovation is an innovation that creates a new market and value network and eventually disrupts an existing market and value network, displacing established market leading firms, products and alliances. The term was defined and phenomenon analyzed by Clayton M. Christensen beginning in 1995."

Not unlike Walmart, Starbuck's, Microsoft, or any other large corporation that puts smaller companies out of business. The whole point of "Disruptive Innovation" is the destruction of the competition. BTW, they WILL use all the acquired data, they say so themselves, scroll down to INTELLIGENCE:
http://zx-ventures.com/

I buy local whenever I can, but sometimes I have to buy online for specific ingredients/equipment. I don't want to spend my money with InBev. Pretty soon, I may not have a choice. For me, for now, Austin Homebrew just got a new customer.
Regards, GF.

 

[mongoose33]

It's official - NB is dead to me.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/learn/farleys-feature-brewing-exciting-future/

I have mixed feelings about the move. There are many possible outcomes, some good, some not so much. I think we have to wait and see.

What are some negative possibilities?

• The new mgmt group siphons off as much profit as they can, stifling innovation and development.
• Prices undercut everyone in the business, causing a shakeout.
• Prices undercut everyone, and after the shakeout, prices are jacked.
• They eliminate chat support (which is a fabulous feature of NB).
• They reduce stock, resulting in delays and reduction in choice.
• They turn off new homebrewers, causing the hobby harm

What are some positive possibilities?

• More is put into research and development of new equipment and kits.
• Marketing reaches more potential new brewers, growing the hobby.
• More stores are opened in places that don't have a LHBS.
• Marketing creates more awareness about homebrewing, growing demand for craft brews.

Which is more likely? I don't know. We tend to assume the worst when we see such changes; only time will tell if InBev is more interested in killing the hobby or growing it. My gut says they see the trend and want to get in on it. Traditional beer sales have been flat for some time; homebrewing is where the growth potential is.

Then there's the name of the acquiring unit: "Disruptive growth." That could be good or bad. If they are serious about growing the homebrewing segment, they might end up being a force for loosening distribution restraints, getting rid of stupid laws restricting homebrewing, and the like.

My gut says they're not going to try to destroy homebrewing; it's too entrenched to do that, IMO. In two years, we'll have a better idea as to whether they're a force for good or evil.

********************

Northern Brewer is where I got my start in homebrewing. They do some innovative stuff; the BigMouthBubbler is one example of that, a fermenter that I like so much I now have three. They screwed up the universal lid on that somehow, which is too bad, but even though that ULid doesn't work sometimes, I think the BMBs are so good I will buy them and just use the workaround.

They developed "the last straw" beer gun, and now they've got a new small conical fermenter that is different than anything I've seen. http://www.northernbrewer.com/catalyst-fermentor Reviews (the two that are there) are mixed, and I think it's pretty pricey for what it is, but the market will decide. The continued attempts at innovation is good; that's what I'm most concerned will disappear.