Please help me dry out my beer!

[cowger]

I've been trying to experiment on how to come up with a significantly lower FG and don't seem to have it figured out yet. I'd love to hear suggestions on what I may be doing wrong.

My goal is to be able to dial in whatever dryness I'd like, emulating some of the beers I've tried that are in the 1.005 range. I understand that not all beers need to be that attenuated, but again, this is as much an experiment as it is trying to brew a batch of beer.

My latest attempt:

12 lbs 2-row
8 oz Carapils
4 oz Crystal-40L

0.50 ozs Citra FWH
1 oz Citra 10 mins
1.5 oz Citra 5 mins
1 oz Citra whirlpool for 30 mins
2 oz Citra DH 6 days

For the mash, I ran the following profile (RIMS setup):
Mash-in at 130, rest for 10 minutes
Ramp to 145 over 20 minutes, rest for 30 minutes
Ramp to 150 over 10 minutes, rest for 10 minutes
Ramp to 156 over 12 minutes, rest for 10 minutes
Ramp to 168, rest there for 10, mash-out.

My target pre-boil gravity was 1.042 at 75% efficiency, but I hit 1.045, so I'm assuming around 80% efficiency. OG came in at 1.055 (vs. a 1.048 target).

I pitched two packets of US-05 into the fermenter with the wort at 65 degrees. I then cooled the fermentation chamber down to 62 for a week. Airlock activity started on the 2nd day and went very steadily for about 5 days, then tapered to nothing at day 7. I took a measurement and it was at 1.010. Hoping to restart the yeast, I aerated the fermentation vessel and have subsequently brought the chamber up to 72, but the yeast seem to be done and I've bottomed at 1.010. I'm now 10 days into fermentation and plan to start dry hopping this coming weekend.

At this point I'm assuming that I didn't fully convert all the sugars to fermentables. Any idea why that is (assuming that's correct) or what else I can try to get another 5 points lower on attenuation?

Bryan

 

[theseeker4]

I've been trying to experiment on how to come up with a significantly lower FG and don't seem to have it figured out yet. I'd love to hear suggestions on what I may be doing wrong.

My goal is to be able to dial in whatever dryness I'd like, emulating some of the beers I've tried that are in the 1.005 range. I understand that not all beers need to be that attenuated, but again, this is as much an experiment as it is trying to brew a batch of beer.

My latest attempt:

12 lbs 2-row
8 oz Carapils
4 oz Crystal-40L

0.50 ozs Citra FWH
1 oz Citra 10 mins
1.5 oz Citra 5 mins
1 oz Citra whirlpool for 30 mins
2 oz Citra DH 6 days

For the mash, I ran the following profile (RIMS setup):
Mash-in at 130, rest for 10 minutes
Ramp to 145 over 20 minutes, rest for 30 minutes
Ramp to 150 over 10 minutes, rest for 10 minutes
Ramp to 156 over 12 minutes, rest for 10 minutes
Ramp to 168, rest there for 10, mash-out.

My target pre-boil gravity was 1.042 at 75% efficiency, but I hit 1.045, so I'm assuming around 80% efficiency. OG came in at 1.055 (vs. a 1.048 target).

I pitched two packets of US-05 into the fermenter with the wort at 65 degrees. I then cooled the fermentation chamber down to 62 for a week. Airlock activity started on the 2nd day and went very steadily for about 5 days, then tapered to nothing at day 7. I took a measurement and it was at 1.010. Hoping to restart the yeast, I aerated the fermentation vessel and have subsequently brought the chamber up to 72, but the yeast seem to be done and I've bottomed at 1.010. I'm now 10 days into fermentation and plan to start dry hopping this coming weekend.

At this point I'm assuming that I didn't fully convert all the sugars to fermentables. Any idea why that is (assuming that's correct) or what else I can try to get another 5 points lower on attenuation?

Bryan

Even with the most favorable mashing, not all the sugars will be ferment able, especially if you use grains that are intended to add body, like crystal. If you want to bump the gravity down, add some corn sugar or other completely ferment able sugar.

 

[slym2none]

Drop a pound of 2-row, half the Carapils, and all the Crystal. Add 1-1/2 pounds cane or corn sugar.

 

[kombat]

I aerated the fermentation vessel

!?!

What exactly did you do? You may have ruined this batch via oxidation.

1.010 is already pretty dry for a beer. To get to your desired 1.005, I'd say you'd need to cut out all non-fermentable malts (the Crystal and Carapils) entirely, go straight to a mash-out from 145° (i.e., skip the 150 & 156° steps entirely), add 5-10% dextrose to the boil, and pitch a healthy amount of hungry yeast (I've had US-05 go that low).

But aerating a beer after fermentation has already finished? I'm afraid for your beer ...

 

[cowger]

Drop a pound of 2-row, half the Carapils, and all the Crystal. Add 1-1/2 pounds cane or corn sugar.

Good, I like it. I'll try this as the next experiment....

Thanks!

 

[cowger]

!?!

What exactly did you do? You may have ruined this batch via oxidation.

1.010 is already pretty dry for a beer. To get to your desired 1.005, I'd say you'd need to cut out all non-fermentable malts (the Crystal and Carapils) entirely, go straight to a mash-out from 145° (i.e., skip the 150 & 156° steps entirely), add 5-10% dextrose to the boil, and pitch a healthy amount of hungry yeast (I've had US-05 go that low).

But aerating a beer after fermentation has already finished? I'm afraid for your beer ...

I guess I don't see this as that much risk, but time will tell. We certainly aerate the wort when putting it into the fermenter, and that's an environment where sugars are high, the yeast is not yet established, and ABV = 0. Now, it has roughly 6% alcohol in it and thus should be much less favorable for airborne bacteria to get started. That's my perception, anyway -- certainly could be wrong.

If I skip the 150 and 156 steps, wouldn't some of the longer strings of sugars still exist? I stopped there to give the Alpha-A enzymes a chance to snip those up. Again, please correct my understanding if I'm off.

Thanks!

 

[m00ps]

I agree with adding the sugar. Also, have you ever heard of saison yeasts? If not, dont get me started.......but it may be exactly what you need to consistently get below 1.010

 

[lumpher]

Amylase Enzyme also helps to break down the sugars and make it even dryer

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

I guess I don't see this as that much risk, but time will tell. We certainly aerate the wort when putting it into the fermenter, and that's an environment where sugars are high, the yeast is not yet established, and ABV = 0. Now, it has roughly 6% alcohol in it and thus should be much less favorable for airborne bacteria to get started. That's my perception, anyway -- certainly could be wrong.

The problem is not with contamination but with beer oxidation and flavour degradation...

 

[kombat]

I guess I don't see this as that much risk, but time will tell. We certainly aerate the wort when putting it into the fermenter, and that's an environment where sugars are high, the yeast is not yet established, and ABV = 0. Now, it has roughly 6% alcohol in it and thus should be much less favorable for airborne bacteria to get started.

It's not about airborne bacteria or infection - it's about oxidation.

We aerate the wort initially because the yeast need oxygen in order to multiply and get going. They will process and eliminate all of the oxygen being added. But adding more oxygen after the yeast are done will cause oxidation in the beer, as the yeast are no longer consuming it.

 

[RocketBrewer]

You might want to check your temp sensors with a good calibrated thermometer if you haven't already. Lots of brewers have been shocked to find out that they have been mashing at much higher (or lower) temps than they intended to. +1 on keeping the mash temps low, that will give you the most fermentable sugars.

 

[cowger]

The problem is not with contamination but with beer oxidation and flavour degradation...

It's not about airborne bacteria or infection - it's about oxidation.

Got it and now I understand. So yes, I probably screwed up the batch but again, this is as much an experiment as anything. At least now I know that lack of oxygen isn't the problem and obviously won't try that again...

 

[cowger]

You might want to check your temp sensors with a good calibrated thermometer if you haven't already. Lots of brewers have been shocked to find out that they have been mashing at much higher (or lower) temps than they intended to. +1 on keeping the mash temps low, that will give you the most fermentable sugars.

Makes sense, thanks. I have one of the digital "instant read" thermometers and have used it to confirm. They claim it's accurate to 0.1 degree...

Also, I should add that my mash Ph was 5.5 for this batch. I add some salts to the water (basically Bru'n Water "Pale Ale" profile).

 

[cowger]

I agree with adding the sugar. Also, have you ever heard of saison yeasts? If not, dont get me started.......but it may be exactly what you need to consistently get below 1.010

I've heard of the beer but haven't ever brewed it nor considered the yeast for an ale. I'll do some studying... thanks!

 

[philosofool]

Mash at 147 for 90 and don't mash out, just start sparging. Try WLP 001/Wyeast 1056. It seems to be a better attenuator than 05.

 

[Mirilis]

add beano


http://www.beanogas.com/

 

[cowger]

Mash at 147 for 90 and don't mash out, just start sparging. Try WLP 001/Wyeast 1056. It seems to be a better attenuator than 05.

Hmmm, interesting. What sparge water temp?

 

[cowger]

add beano

http://www.beanogas.com/

Thanks. I've read mixed things on adding beano, and not all good. If I were to add anything, I think I'd go with Amylase Enzyme as lumpher has suggested. But I'll first see if I can get there in a more traditional route.

 

[rmarshall100]

Do you aerate with oxygen for 60 seconds before you pitch the yeast? I have found it to be beneficial.

 

[cowger]

Do you aerate with oxygen for 60 seconds before you pitch the yeast? I have found it to be beneficial.

I don't, but have considered it. Short of that, I make sure that the wort is introduced into the fermenter in such a way that a lot of aeration takes place. This involves the output hose from the chiller being held 18-24" above the fermenter and letting it splash into the pool of wort that's already in there...

Are you suggesting pure oxygen and a stone?

 

[m00ps]

I've heard of the beer but haven't ever brewed it nor considered the yeast for an ale. I'll do some studying... thanks!

I will typically spike things like black IPAs, DIPAs, or big Belgians with a bit of saison yeast 2-3 days into fermentation to ensure they get nice and dry. Last on took a 1.084 DIPA down to 1.006. Adding it a bit into fermentation minimizes its flavor contribution. Although I do love the saison yeast flavors

 

[cowger]

I will typically spike things like black IPAs, DIPAs, or big Belgians with a bit of saison yeast 2-3 days into fermentation to ensure they get nice and dry. Last on took a 1.084 DIPA down to 1.006. Adding it a bit into fermentation minimizes its flavor contribution. Although I do love the saison yeast flavors

Wow, that's an impressive level of attenuation!

Which yeast do you use and with or without a starter?

 

[Hello]

I will typically spike things like black IPAs, DIPAs, or big Belgians with a bit of saison yeast 2-3 days into fermentation to ensure they get nice and dry. Last on took a 1.084 DIPA down to 1.006. Adding it a bit into fermentation minimizes its flavor contribution. Although I do love the saison yeast flavors

That is interesting. Do you get any flavors from the saison yeast?

 

[m00ps]

Better question: which saison yeasts dont I use?

But for specifically drying out a non-belgian beer, Ive had good results with Wyeast 3711 and YB Wallonian Farmhouse. The 3711 ive pitched alongside my IPA yeast because it can give a nice lemony zip at the end that compliments hops. The Wallonian farmhouse seems to bring out more malt flavors than most saison yeasts so I like using that for Black IPAs and Belgian Dark Strong Ales

I usually just do a small 400ml starter and it does the trick

 

[m00ps]

I haven;t gotten any noticeable saison esters when I delay the pitching of it. But in the above example with using 3711 at the same time as my IPA yeast (conan), I could definitely detect that bright saison esters and its characteristic crisp clean finish. Worked perfectly for my OJ IPA

 

[November]

I use amylase when I want to dry out a beer. Depends on grain bill but it will bring you to 1.004 to 1.008 range.

 

[cowger]

On Sunday I racked this batch into a keg for dry hopping (2oz Citra). It never did get any lower than 1.010. The taste (pre-dry hopping) was pretty bland, I'm guessing due to my errant aeration of the beer. I'm assuming at this point that I'm making a slightly hoppy Budweiser with this first batch...

For the next try, I'm going to make the following changes:

- Drop the 2-row from 12 lbs to 10.5
- Drop the Carapils from 8 oz to 4
- Eliminate the Crystal 40L
- Add 1.5 lbs of Dextrose

Same hop schedule

For the mash, I'll take your guys' other suggestion and just do a 147 degree dwell for 90 minutes and fly sparge with 147 degree water (no mash-out).

I'm going to hold off adding amylase enzyme at least for now - I want to see how low of an FG I can get with just the base ingredients.

Any thoughts / corrections?

 

[m00ps]

That should get you nice and low FG. Although the yeast selection does have a lot to do with it too. US-05 is a decent attenuator, but there are much mroe aggressive yeasts out there

But anything I want to get dry always gets mashed around 148 and has 1lb of table sugar in it. Ive never had to use enzymes

 

[cowger]

That should get you nice and low FG. Although the yeast selection does have a lot to do with it too. US-05 is a decent attenuator, but there are much mroe aggressive yeasts out there

But anything I want to get dry always gets mashed around 148 and has 1lb of table sugar in it. Ive never had to use enzymes

Thanks, m00ps. I should have added that I'm going to pitch 2 packets of US-05 and also take your suggestion of the 3711 mid-way through.

 

[Newsman]

If you want to get REALLY low, go with something like champagne yeast... that's got a really high tolerance for alcohol, and will really eat every available sugar it can get ahold of.

 

[JKaranka]

A bit of simple sugars and switching from US05 to Nottingham should do it. I use Nottingham a lot and 1.006-1.010 is usual for beers with OG 1.055-1.065. Often screws up my calculations.

 

[cowger]

A bit of simple sugars and switching from US05 to Nottingham should do it. I use Nottingham a lot and 1.006-1.010 is usual for beers with OG 1.055-1.065. Often screws up my calculations.

Thanks -- I hadn't known about Nottingham previously but it looks like a beast of a yeast.

Are you brewing all grain? If so, anything particular about your mash temp/time that helps get a lower FG? I'm still not sure about doing a mash and never getting into the alpha-a range...

 

[JKaranka]

Mash low. Notty should do the rest.

 

[henchman24]

Using 3711 either by itself or with another yeast (3711 + Conan is an amazing combination IMO, but 3711 + US05 is also pretty damn good) will get a lot of beers in the 1.002-1.005 range for me. I usually pitch them both at the same time, but I really like saison esters. I typically mash beers I want to be dry in the 146-150 and add some simple sugars as well.

I actually like using 3711 as the only yeast in an IPA from time to time. It isn't traditional, but it tastes great and that is what really matters.

I've only had maybe 3 beers that were fermented only with US05 that got in the 1.005 and below range, and one was a mistake that was mashed at 145-146 for 90 minutes. US05 attenuates well, but to get that low means that almost no specialty malts can be used with only US05.

 

[cowger]

Using 3711 either by itself or with another yeast (3711 + Conan is an amazing combination IMO, but 3711 + US05 is also pretty damn good) will get a lot of beers in the 1.002-1.005 range for me. I usually pitch them both at the same time, but I really like saison esters. I typically mash beers I want to be dry in the 146-150 and add some simple sugars as well.

I actually like using 3711 as the only yeast in an IPA from time to time. It isn't traditional, but it tastes great and that is what really matters.

I've only had maybe 3 beers that were fermented only with US05 that got in the 1.005 and below range, and one was a mistake that was mashed at 145-146 for 90 minutes. US05 attenuates well, but to get that low means that almost no specialty malts can be used with only US05.

Excellent info, thanks! This helps tie everything together for me. We'll see what round 2 brings.

 

[benzesp]

Want low FG, Mash at lower temp to reduce dextrins and increase fermentability.

 

[chickypad]

If you want to get REALLY low, go with something like champagne yeast... that's got a really high tolerance for alcohol, and will really eat every available sugar it can get ahold of.

I'm pretty sure that champagne yeasts like other wine yeasts aren't able to ferment maltotriose. So they won't help if the issue is longer chain sugars and not alcohol tolerance (which it shouldn't be with an OG of 1.055).

 

[Clef051]

I've had great results with white labs wlp007, mashing low, little or no specality malts and some corn sugar

 

[slym2none]

If you want to get REALLY low, go with something like champagne yeast... that's got a really high tolerance for alcohol, and will really eat every available sugar it can get ahold of.

Just don't add it until the other yeasts are done.

 

[slym2none]

A bit of simple sugars and switching from US05 to Nottingham should do it. I use Nottingham a lot and 1.006-1.010 is usual for beers with OG 1.055-1.065. Often screws up my calculations.

Good advice - one of my last batches, Notty gave out 5 points lower than Brewer's Friend expected (1.008 v/s 1.013).