Please Clarify "Primary" and "Secondary"

[GHBWNY]

I know that the term "primary" refers to the wort in its first stage of fermentation, and "secondary" is wort in its second stage of fermentation. So, when I rack completely-fermented wort to another vessel for any purpose other than fermentation, is there a term for the wort in that stage? Seems like referring to it as a "secondary" simply because the fermented wort was transferred to a second vessel would be misleading.

I'm hoping my Am. Wheat will end up looking closer to a Sommerweizen than the Hefe it does now. So, I plan to rack it to a glass carboy for a few weeks so it will further clear. Whether it does or not, I don't want to misrepresent the process by saying it's in the 'secondary' if technically, it's not. Just need a little "clarification".

 

[hunter_le five]

You're correct, it is a misleading term.

Homebrewers generally use "secondary" as a catch-all term for when the beer is transferred from the primary vessel into a second vessel - regardless of whether it is for a true second fermentation or simply for clarifying. Really it's more of a "brite tank" than a secondary in most instances.

 

[andy6026]

hunter is correct (just incase you wanted a second/third opinion).

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

andy is correct about hunter being correct. If the 1st stage is the primary and the
2nd stage is the secondary, what do you call the 3rd?

 

[cluckk]

You can also look at some beers having a tertiary fermentation. Anytime you let the beer go through a stage of fermentation you can see it as one of these. It is not really a definition of the wort going through it, but simply a designation of the stage of fermentation--they are all part of the same process, but different activity is going on. When the yeast are actively changing sugar into alcohol and other compounds you have primary. When the beer is clearing and the yeast are cleaning up after themselves you can call it secondary. To claim that leaving it in primary longer means not doing a secondary may be helpful, but is not really accurate. All beer will go through a secondary stage of fermentation, unless it is interrupted. Then when packed, primed and aged you have a tertiary fermentation. However, keep in mind that in most conversations here on HBT, when guys talk about doing a secondary, they specifically mean transferring into another fermenter. If someone says, "I don't secondary my beers," they simply mean they do not transfer the beer into a second fermentation vessel. They still allow the beer to go through the process that would happen in a secondary vessel. They just do it all in one.

 

[andy6026]

andy is correct about hunter being correct. If the 1st stage is the primary and the
2nd stage is the secondary, what do you call the 3rd?

haha, made me chuckle. thanks!

 

[GHBWNY]

You can also look at some beers having a tertiary fermentation. Anytime you let the beer go through a stage of fermentation you can see it as one of these. It is not really a definition of the wort going through it, but simply a designation of the stage of fermentation--they are all part of the same process, but different activity is going on. When the yeast are actively changing sugar into alcohol and other compounds you have primary. When the beer is clearing and the yeast are cleaning up after themselves you can call it secondary. To claim that leaving it in primary longer means not doing a secondary may be helpful, but is not really accurate. All beer will go through a secondary stage of fermentation, unless it is interrupted. Then when packed, primed and aged you have a tertiary fermentation. However, keep in mind that in most conversations here on HBT, when guys talk about doing a secondary, they specifically mean transferring into another fermenter. If someone says, "I don't secondary my beers," they simply mean they do not transfer the beer into a second fermentation vessel. They still allow the beer to go through the process that would happen in a secondary vessel. They just do it all in one.

Good comprehensive answer. But you forgot the "quadriary" stage of fermentation: after it enters your digestive tract.

 

[soccerdad]

today is March 17th ... the Irish would call tertiary fermentation as the Turd Stage

 

[prohl84]

what do you call the 3rd?

Tertiary, then quaternary, then pentenary but I rarely pentenary my beers. Only for Belgiums.

 

[Meadiator]

So secondary in beer is just like it is in mead? Primarily for clearing the brew and not necessary?

 

[JustLooking]

andy is correct about hunter being correct.

They're all wrong. A brite tank is where beer goes to get carbonated.

And it's not fermentation (primary, secondary ...) if alcohol is not being produced. Fermentation has nothing to do with " the beer is clearing and the yeast are cleaning up after themselves." Those are processes that are independent of fermentation.

 

[GHBWNY]

They're all wrong. A brite tank is where beer goes to get carbonated.

And it's not fermentation (primary, secondary ...) if alcohol is not being produced. It has nothing to do with "the beer is clearing and the yeast are cleaning up after themselves."

Maybe this thread needs some gelatin thrown into it...?

 

[arbiadya]

today is March 17th ... the Irish would call tertiary fermentation as the Turd Stage

This was hilarious !

 

[Yooper]

So secondary in beer is just like it is in mead? Primarily for clearing the brew and not necessary?

Not to my mind. While a clearing vessel is not generally necessary for beer, and I use a "secondary" only for oaking or otherwise needing to move the beer off of the yeast cake (including to reuse the yeast in that fermenter), I am strongly of the opinion that mead needs a secondary. I rack the mead to a secondary and airlock when the mead gets to 1.010 or thereabouts and I expect it to finish at .990. Fermentation is still going on, and that is when I airlock my meads and wines and ciders- when they go to secondary.

Beer is different for me. I ferment in a vessel, then rack to a keg or bottling bucket when it's ready to be packaged. I don't normally rack it to a carboy and mess around with it.

 

[GHBWNY]

Maybe this thread needs some gelatin thrown into it...?

So...... technically speaking, "primary" and "secondary" are stages of fermentation and not just a sequence of vessels. So, if I say my wort is in the "secondary", you might presume it has been racked to a second vessel --- but not necessarily. And if it is in a second vessel, you might presume it is in "secondary" --- but not necessarily. Glad to have THAT cleared up! :cross:

 

[JimRausch]

I propose that we retire the term 'secondary', unless additions are made to restart fermentation(like fruit).
I think that people,especially newbies, get confused usually by the outdated instructions from kits that call for racking to a secondary.
Instead, I like the term 'conditioning'. Or 'cold conditioning'. Seems like a more appropriate term for what is actually happening.

 

[JustLooking]

Secondary vessel rather than secondary fermenter might help clarify things.

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

Why are you all getting so technica? It's a primary or secondary , and leave it at that.

 

[GHBWNY]

It's a primary or secondary...

WHAT is a primary or secondary??!!

 

[Yooper]

WHAT is a primary or secondary??!!

I was a winemaker a long time before I started brewing. In winemaking, "primary" and "secondary" are well understood as terms. In brewing, I think the terms were stolen from winemaking, and they used to mean the same thing.

Back when yeast was fairly poor quality, or worse when bread yeast was used, it was common advice to do a primary, and then to get the beer off of the trub in about 5 days or so, just as with winemaking. In that sense, the "primary" and "secondary" still make sense in the old school method.

Today's brewing methods changed a bit because the quality of the yeast changed a lot. With quality yeast, both liquid and dry strains, the fears of autolysis and off flavors from the yeast are unfounded so brewers today commonly keep the beer in the primary much much longer than 3-5 days!

I rarely use the terms "primary" and "secondary" in brewing now. I use the words "fermenter" and "clearing vessel" which is more apt for brewing.

As I look around my house, I have about 25 carboys of wine. They are all in "secondary", and have been bulk aging in those carboys for months. When I make wine, I do a true "primary" and a true "secondary" in the strict definition of the terms.

I hope that explanation is helpful to someone!

 

[GHBWNY]

I was a winemaker a long time before I started brewing. In winemaking, "primary" and "secondary" are well understood as terms. In brewing, I think the terms were stolen from winemaking, and they used to mean the same thing.

Back when yeast was fairly poor quality, or worse when bread yeast was used, it was common advice to do a primary, and then to get the beer off of the trub in about 5 days or so, just as with winemaking. In that sense, the "primary" and "secondary" still make sense in the old school method.

Today's brewing methods changed a bit because the quality of the yeast changed a lot. With quality yeast, both liquid and dry strains, the fears of autolysis and off flavors from the yeast are unfounded so brewers today commonly keep the beer in the primary much much longer than 3-5 days!

I rarely use the terms "primary" and "secondary" in brewing now. I use the words "fermenter" and "clearing vessel" which is more apt for brewing.

As I look around my house, I have about 25 carboys of wine. They are all in "secondary", and have been bulk aging in those carboys for months. When I make wine, I do a true "primary" and a true "secondary" in the strict definition of the terms.

I hope that explanation is helpful to someone!

Very well said and VERY helpful! I think as new-brewers, we want to make sure we are "doing everything right", including the use of "beer-jargon" so that we do not look like complete idiots when trying to explain what we are doing here or anywhere else. As for my purposes, it will be "fermentation" and "clearing" from now on. P & S do have a legit application, maybe even in beer brewing. But whether it's legit or not, it obviously has the potential to be confusing. Thanks for clearing this up --- in my way of thinking, anyway.