Pitching at 80 F then cooling down after fermentation starts bad for beer??

[Grizz]

I have been making 10 gallon batches and am only able to chill down to around 80 F with my chiller since the water isn't that cold around here. So I pitch at 80 F and then once fermentation starts I start chilling the beer, if I try to chill earlier then I get suck back in the fermenter. Most of my beers (pale ale or ipa's) come out tasting the same with a weird after taste. I'm starting to wonder if it's due to the way I get fermentation going? Anyone experience this before and fix it?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yeah that's probably at least part of your issue.

Chill as far as you can quickly with ground water, then attach a pond pump to your chiller and start pumping ice water instead of ground water. Lots of people use an additional chiller submersed in ice water before their wort chiller ("pre-chiller") but I found this largely ineffective. Pumping ice water is far more effective.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Try a split batch - half with your warm pitching, and half chilled using Qhrumphf's method. See if you notice enough of a difference to make ice chilling worth the effort.

 

[Vale71]

So I pitch at 80 F and then once fermentation starts I start chilling the beer, if I try to chill earlier then I get suck back in the fermenter.

Are you really worried about sucking air into the fermenter before pitching?
Just chill the wort as far as your water temperature allows you to, then start the chiller/freezer or whatever you use to control temperature and only when the wort is at the right temperature pitch yeast and then attach the airlock/blowoff. As long as you don't delay pitching yeast more than a few hours you'll be fine.

 

[brownni5]

Are you really worried about sucking air into the fermenter before pitching?
Just chill the wort as far as your water temperature allows you to, then start the chiller/freezer or whatever you use to control temperature and only when the wort is at the right temperature pitch yeast and then attach the airlock/blowoff. As long as you don't delay pitching yeast more than a few hours you'll be fine.

I agree with this, except for the last statement - if everything is sanitary, hours or the next day won't matter.

You can set the the flavor profile for your beer at the beginning of fermentation. When using a strain that doesn't like heat, well then cooling after pitching may already be too late.

 

[Vale71]

I agree with this, except for the last statement - if everything is sanitary, hours or the next day won't matter.

Wort is not sterile it can go bad and waiting can have dire consequences. Think serious food poisoning.

 

[TechFanMD]

Wort is not sterile it can go bad and waiting can have dire consequences. Think serious food poisoning.

Wort is not sterile but it is pretty sanitary, and with good sanitation and handling techniques that should be used regardless, you are not going to get food poisoning from leaving it until the next day to pitch. No way.

Aside from that, the PH and lack of amino acids and lipids rule out any human pathogen that would cause food poisoning.

This is homebrewing 101

 

[kh54s10]

Wort is not sterile it can go bad and waiting can have dire consequences. Think serious food poisoning.

Quite unlikely if everything is sanitary, thousands do no chill brewing. They allow the wort to cool on it's own then pitch. I can only get near 80 so I put the fermenter in my chamber and pitch when it reaches my desired fermentation temperature. It is always several hours. I have also often pitched the next morning when it wasn't cool enough when I went to bed.

 

[Vale71]

Aside from that, the PH and lack of amino acids and lipids rule out any human pathogen that would cause food poisoning.

This is homebrewing 101

You must be thinking about beer and not wort. PH>5 is compatible with tons of pathogens, some of them even sporogenic. Once yeast is pitched it will lower PH rather quickly and thus make the wort incompatible with many of those nasties.
This is brewing technology 101, but my teacher only had a doctorate from Weihenstephan with a specialization in the microbiological aspects but then what did he know?

 

[Vale71]

Quite unlikely if everything is sanitary, thousands do no chill brewing.

And billions have unprotected sex but most of them don't ever get an STD, does that mean they're taking no risk?
BTW we were addressing the issue of leaving chilled wort unpitched for a length of time, no chill has hardly anything in common with that.

 

[kh54s10]

And billions have unprotected sex but most of them don't ever get an STD, does that mean they're taking no risk?
BTW we were addressing the issue of leaving chilled wort unpitched for a length of time, no chill has hardly anything in common with that.

Well in my opinion you are way overstating the risk.
And to me 80 degrees is not fully chilled so they really do have things in common. Only the length of time that it is fully chilled is different.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

And billions have unprotected sex but most of them don't ever get an STD, does that mean they're taking no risk?

What if you have unprotected sex with your unpitched beer....does the risk double?

 

[Vale71]

Well in my opinion you are way overstating the risk.
And to me 80 degrees is not fully chilled so they really do have things in common. Only the length of time that it is fully chilled is different.

80°F is a very cozy temperature for most mesophiles but whatever...

 

[Vale71]

What if you have unprotected sex with your unpitched beer....does the risk double?

I think it's at least an exponential increase...

 

[kh54s10]

80°F is a very cozy temperature for most mesophiles but whatever...

Yes, 80 degrees is great for the yeast, not so much for the flavor of the beer.

And how many of the people that post "My beer didn't take off for 3 days" get sick by drinking the beer.? Most don't even become infected.

 

[seatazzz]

I'm going to go with several posts above and suggest using no-chill. If you have the means to get it down to 80, do so, then transfer to your fermentation vessel. Leave it overnight (or about 12 hours) until it gets down to pitching temperature (less than 70°), then pitch. As long as your sanititation is on point, and no nasties (I'm thinking more about fruit flies/other flying beasties) get in your wort during those 12 or so hours, you should be fine. I've done it several times and am still alive. And good beer came out the other side. You can also consider using a swamp cooler to help it get down those last 10 or so degrees.

 

[Terpene]

Relevant article:
http://beerandwinejournal.com/botulism/
Storing Wort Runs the Risk of Botulism

One homebrewing practice that is gaining in popularity may put homebrewers at risk for botulism — using the no-chill method of wort chilling and subsequently storing (unpitched) boiled wort in sealed containers for long periods of time.

The risk of botulism from storing wort for an extended period of time is low. However, the risk is real, and the consequences are severe, perhaps fatal. The good news is that it is easy to avoid the problem. I would advise no-chill brewers to pitch their worts as soon as is feasible, and there should be no problem...

...It takes awhile for the bacteria to grow, so overnight chilling and a few days of sitting around should be fine. Beyond that, it is hard to say. The risk will always be small, but that needs to be weighed against the large, negative consequences.

 

[Terpene]

OP could simply chill to the appropriate pitching/fermenting temperature before pitching or adding an airlock. (Cover fermenter with foil, like a starter, to allow airflow but exclude contaminants.) Then, when the wort is cool enough (a few hours, next day, basically asap), go ahead and pitch and add the airlock.

 

[Grizz]

Thanks for the advise everyone. Next time I will cover the fermenter airlock stopper with foil and chill the wort down to proper pitching temperature. Or would it be better to use a solid stopper so no air can be sucked into the fermenter during this cool down period?

 

[brownni5]

Thanks for the advise everyone. Next time I will cover the fermenter airlock stopper with foil and chill the wort down to proper pitching temperature. Or would it be better to use a solid stopper so no air can be sucked into the fermenter during this cool down period?

You seem really concerned about suck back. Why? You're going to aerate your wort at pitching time, right? And if you use a solid bung, what do you suppose is going to happen when you remove it to pitch the yeast? RDWHAHB.

 

[Grizz]

You seem really concerned about suck back. Why? You're going to aerate your wort at pitching time, right? And if you use a solid bung, what do you suppose is going to happen when you remove it to pitch the yeast? RDWHAHB.

Good point

 

[isomerization]

Are you actively chilling the fermenter or is it passive?

If active, I see no issue with pitching in low 80s (optimum growth temp for most brewers yeast is around 86F/30C) and continuing to chill to ferm temp. Caveat here being that it shouldn’t take you into active fermentation phase to chill (will vary on strain, wort comp, size of pitch, etc).

This is a (somewhat) common approach for lager brewers to reduce the size of their starter.

I personally do this all the time as well, with no (apparent) issues.

 

[NGD]

You seem really concerned about suck back. Why? You're going to aerate your wort at pitching time, right? And if you use a solid bung, what do you suppose is going to happen when you remove it to pitch the yeast? RDWHAHB.

Good point

@Grizz Is your concern primarily with oxidation or airborne pathogens? I’d just put and S-type airlock on and chill down.

If your worries about pathogens, do your best to sanitize the inside of the cooling chamber. Obviously it won’t sanitize the air but it will lessen the chance of airborne pathogens from old beer spills etc.

+1 for the ice cooling approach. I do this fairly regularly now and it seems to work well. Just had to buy a $15 pond pump.

Prior to having a chiller There were a few times I would cover the brew pot and use an ice bath. It was often times late in the evening I would cool down to 110 or so then stick the whole pot in my mini fridge/ferm chamber and leave it for 8-12 hrs. Afterwards rack to fermentor and pitch. Never an issue with infections granted it was only a handful of times.

 

[passedpawn]

I've been cooling in the fermentor overnight then pitching in the morning for years. No problem. Though, I do keg so slow-growing pathogens never really get a chance to thrive as they would in a bottle. Groundwater in FL is between warm and hot, and that's in the winter

 

[porter1974]

The White and Zainasheff yeast book recommends pitching a few degrees lower than your fermentation temperature. That book is pretty trustworthy. I wouldn't pitch yeast at 80 degrees.

 

[isomerization]

The White and Zainasheff yeast book recommends pitching a few degrees lower than your fermentation temperature. That book is pretty trustworthy. I wouldn't pitch yeast at 80 degrees.

That’s funny, I was looking for some kind of scientific publication to support either direction of this question. Couldn’t really find anything... but I did see this Brulosophy article:

http://brulosophy.com/2014/12/15/the-temp-at-which-we-pitch-exbeeriment-results/

with a quote from White Labs:

“It does reduce esters, but if you pitch the yeast warm and then drop the temp down when it gets going, there will be very minimal ester production versus if it was pitched cold, which can take a very long time for the fermentation to get going”

So if anyone has a publication/reference addressing this, I’d love to see it, thanks!

 

[Cato1507]

I often chill to 80 when ground temps are warm and then pump into my fermenter in the mini fridge. I usually chill to about 72 and pitch the yeast. After a few hours I'll set the the inkbird for 65. In the morning I'll make any final adjustments if needed.

Seems to work fine but I always try to pitch well within the upper temp range of the yeast and then drop to a comfortable fermentation temp for that yeast.

When chilling the wort down in the fermenter I just add enough star san mix to just cover then end of the blow off hose so if there is any suck back it will only rise partially up the hose. Once temps stabilize I'll add a little more mix to the jar.

So far has worked well.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I used to think (based on what many brewers say) that the first 24 hours or so after pitching yeast is the most important period in terms of development of off-flavours. Recently though, I read a peer-reviewed article (which I can't find at the moment - I'll keep looking and post if I find it) that showed very clearly that the bulk of esters/higher alcohols etc. are produced during peak fermentation (two to four days or so after pitching), so that would be the most important time to control temperatures. It was actually research comparing pressurised with non-pressurised ferments (the timing of off-flavour development wasn't the intent). So, six months ago I'd have been wary, now not so much.

 

[Dory Rules]

You could use a Kveik yeast, in which case you would want to keep it at 80 or higher.

 

[isomerization]

For some reason the pages posted out of order. Sorry.

Thanks for sharing! Sadly they didn’t cite any references. I wonder how much of an impact the stress response has on yeast growth, ester formation, etc.

 

[porter1974]

It does have the white labs experiment in there. But I hear you. It’s not a rigorous scientific experiment or anything.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It’s not a rigorous scientific experiment or anything.

The pages appear to be from the book Yeast, so it does have that going for it .