Pilsner, fermentation under pressure, temp and pressure?

[Bassman2003]

The amount of pressure is up to you. There is no harm in doing a 'single pressure' beer where you ferment at your end carbonation level. For lagers and IPAs it is quite nice. I will relay that I know brewers that have gone to using 3 bar as their SOP as they like the flavors so much. They just open up the spunding valve towards the end of fermentation to stabilize the volumes of CO2 to match their end serving carbonation.

For me, I always do my IPAs at 2 bar - 32PSI - 70-72F. It takes more yeast but the hops pop. At that temperature, that is not far off of where I want to serve at using 45F. For lager, a lot of guys I know will ferment from 1 -2 bar @ 50F. If you ferment a lager around 15 PSI @ 50F you are pretty much done. All natural carbonation and no oxygen or fuss. Remember, pressure fermenting is not just about being able to ferment warm. It is also about trying to mimic the very large CVVs in pro breweries.

Just remember to use a lot more yeast if you do this approach. I would say double your pitch rate for ales and triple for cold lagers under pressure.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

The amount of pressure is up to you. There is no harm in doing a 'single pressure' beer where you ferment at your end carbonation level. For lagers and IPAs it is quite nice. I will relay that I know brewers that have gone to using 3 bar as their SOP as they like the flavors so much. They just open up the spunding valve towards the end of fermentation to stabilize the volumes of CO2 to match their end serving carbonation.

Thanks for the great info!

Do you know what kind of spunding valves folks are using with springs that can go as high as 3 bar? The blowtie valves (most readily available to homebrewers) and I don't believe are recommended above 30 PSI. They say they go up to 40 PSI technically.

I had Trong who makes the spundit create a custom spunding valve for me that goes up to 80 PSI, but wondering what other folks use.

(P.S. I do mostly ales not under pressure, but prime in the kegs with sugar. Currently, I have a beer i dosed with Brett at kegging and I have the valve set at 40 PSI to prevent over carbonation)

For me, I always do my IPAs at 2 bar - 32PSI - 70-72F. It takes more yeast but the hops pop. At that temperature, that is not far off of where I want to serve at using 45F. For lager, a lot of guys I know will ferment from 1 -2 bar @ 50F. If you ferment a lager around 15 PSI @ 50F you are pretty much done. All natural carbonation and no oxygen or fuss. Remember, pressure fermenting is not just about being able to ferment warm. It is also about trying to mimic the very large CVVs in pro breweries.

Just remember to use a lot more yeast if you do this approach. I would say double your pitch rate for ales and triple for cold lagers under pressure.

More great info!

thanks for the advice, I generally make big starters for lagers and will keep this in mind for high pressure situations. This particular scenario won't have temperature control. I figure the ambient will be ~70-75F. Good to know you have had success with IPAs in this range at 2 bar / 32 PSI.

I'd prefer for the beer to be fully carbonated when I chuck it in the keezer. Typically, I never keep my CO2 connected unless I'm serving to mitigate O2 ingress and all my beers are naturally carbed.

Are you using the blowtie or a different spunding valve for 2 bar?

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Pressurized fermentation works by suppressing the development of undesirable esters and the subsequent flavor/aromas that yeast produce when fermenting at higher temperatures.

But not all esters produce flavors/aromas that are undesirable. That’s how you can get decent lagers, even when fermenting at temperatures in the mid-to-high 60sF instead of the low 40sF.

Different yeasts behave differently and produce a wide range of esters, flavors and aromas depending mostly on the temperature of fermentation and to a lesser degree extent on pressure, but the two factors are interrelated.

Also, safety related concerns become greater at higher pressures. The mechanical forces created by volumetric pressure increases follow ‘area squared’ rules. And subsequent stresses on tanks, valves, transfer lines, etc., don’t double from 15 psig to 30 psig, but rather increase logarithmically.

Plus, why would you ever want your beer to be carbonated to 30 psi? You’d have to spend days to get it stabilized down to serving pressure.

Thanks for your thoughtful replies!

My standard practice nowadays is to naturally carbonate all my beers with priming sugar in the kegs at room temp ~70F. I chuck them in the keezer after pressure stabilizes for 48 hours in a row after spiking. Depending on the kinds of beer I'm doing, the kegs can get as high as 40 PSI at that temp to acheive desired level (Belgians get up to 40 PSI for 3 volumes, but most beers are at around 30 PSI for 2 volumes)

After chucking in the keezer, I lager all beers for 10 days @ 32F. This gives enough time for CO2 to fully dissolve, pressure to reach equilibrium, and for the beers to clear nicely.

I prefer to never keep my CO2 tank connected in between serving to mitigate O2 ingress. I also prefer natural carbonation to tank carbonation for low O2 reasons.

15 psi is a good compromise pressure to ferment beer. Most yeasts will work at 15 psig @ 60F, though it’s good to listen to anecdotal reports from fellow brewers as to their successes, or failures, using different yeasts.

Depending on your goals, I can highly recommend NovaLager dry yeast for a wide range of lagers and ales, although it was developed specifically to be a lager yeast used at higher ambient temperatures (60sF-70sF), and not necessarily for pressurized fermentation. But my experience in nearly half a dozen different fermentations is that it works equally well unpressurized as well as pressurized.

I've actually got a pack of the Nova lager on hand that my homebrew club gave me. Haven't used it, but I'll give it a shot!

If you like liquid yeasts, I’ve also used White Labs WLP-808 “Mythical Hammer” which was specifically designed for pressurized fermentation, and it performs quite nicely at 1BAR pressure in lagers, but I’ve not tried it in an ale yet.

Just be mindful of the necessary precautions associated with pressurized fluids. A ruptured tank or blown fitting can ruin your whole day. Even though that Cornelius keg was rated at 60 psi pressure, that was certified on the day it was manufactured. Who knows how many pressurized/depressurized cycles it has been subjected to over its lifetime of use, or how many times it was dropped or dented due to mishandling, compromising its integrity? Those stresses are cumulative. No need to tease the animals.

I am an overly cautious person in general, and I appreciate the warning on that! That being said, all of my kegs are rated to 9 bar and they were all purchased brand new. I gave up on used soda kegs for various reasons including the concerns you mention. All of me beers hit 30 PSI in the kegs nowadays since I prime with sugar at room temp.

I would never consider going over 15 PSI in my fermzillas for example for the reasons you stated, but I believe I'm very safe at those higher working pressures with kegs rated to 9 bar

 

[Bassman2003]

The blowties are just a body with a screw that depresses a membrane. That part can handle a lot of pressure. It is the gauge part of the Blowties that limit their pressure rating. I have two different styles - the one that needs a "T" to add a gauge and the one that has a little square part that holds the gauge. The first one just depends on the gauge you add to determine the pressure. I have a 60 PSI gauge but have never gone over 40 PSI.

The confusing model is the Blowtie that most often sold as a 15 PSI spunding valve. If you pop the little square 15 PSI gauge out an replace it with their 60 PSI gauge it will be a 60 PSI spunding valve. This is not made very clear by Kegland. I changed it out for their digital gauge which is supposed to be very accurate and can go to 90 PSI.

Pressure fermentation is a really cool level you can pull in your brewing. There can be a place for it or you can skip it.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

The blowties are just a body with a screw that depresses a membrane. That part can handle a lot of pressure. It is the gauge part of the Blowties that limit their pressure rating. I have two different styles - the one that needs a "T" to add a gauge and the one that has a little square part that holds the gauge. The first one just depends on the gauge you add to determine the pressure. I have a 60 PSI gauge but have never gone over 40 PSI.

The confusing model is the Blowtie that most often sold as a 15 PSI spunding valve. If you pop the little square 15 PSI gauge out an replace it with their 60 PSI gauge it will be a 60 PSI spunding valve. This is not made very clear by Kegland. I changed it out for their digital gauge which is supposed to be very accurate and can go to 90 PSI.

Pressure fermentation is a really cool level you can pull in your brewing. There can be a place for it or you can skip it.

I thought that the spring in the blowtie spunding valve isn't intending for pressures above 30 PSI (kegland lists it as up to 40 psi) . I do have a high pressure gauge available I could hook up but my understanding is that you needed a different spring too.

What are the highest pressures have you used on the regular model (the one without a gauge)?

This is the model I'm talking about

 

[Bassman2003]

I think they have a version 1 and version 2. I have v2 and have a 60 PSI gauge on it. But I am unclear what the upper limit is. I have not gone above 40 PSI. I read the little one can go to 90 PSI.

Also remember, pressure fermenting in the end is all about volumes of CO2 in the beer. That is the only statistic that matters to the yeast. They do not care about the PSI but rather how much dissolved CO2 is around. The colder the temps the more CO2 that goes into concentration. So try to think of volumes of CO2 rather PSI when fermenting.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I think they have a version 1 and version 2. I have v2 and have a 60 PSI gauge on it. But I am unclear what the upper limit is. I have not gone above 40 PSI. I read the little one can go to 90 PSI.

Also remember, pressure fermenting in the end is all about volumes of CO2 in the beer. That is the only statistic that matters to the yeast. They do not care about the PSI but rather how much dissolved CO2 is around. The colder the temps the more CO2 that goes into concentration. So try to think of volumes of CO2 rather PSI when fermenting.

Per kegland they're confirmed 40 PSI is not an issue