PicoBrew Zymatic

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drgonzo2k2 said:
FWIW I did go ahead and cancel my Z2 pre-order on Thursday. I got my Braumeister 20L that day and was just blown away with the quality, and then I was re-reading some of this thread, and I just said to hell with it. It was pretty simple, I just emailed them and asked them to cancel. They did get back to me and offer me an additional brew keg + some Z packs if I stuck it out, but I declined.

Seems like they have sort of a canned response if folks email and ask about delays, because after offering me some extras for not canceling, in the same email the rep said, "Some additional info regarding the Z:" and then had some differently formatted text than the rest of their mail. In that response they said they had shipped their "final beta units" and "our first production units are shipping," but that's all news to me.

I did take the opportunity to tell them I thought they should be more transparent about what's going on and not waste our time with giving us bios of junior team members in the weekly emails.

They said the refund would take 5-10 business days.
Click to expand...

I've heard only good things about the Bruameisters. Looks like a solid piece of kit. And no double step filters to deal with.
 
Anyhowe said:
Seriously who gives a shizzle. My guess is they want to deliver a quality product faster than you want to receive it. Sheesh.
Click to expand...

That attitude was completely uncalled for. All I said is "I'll let you judge if there is any weight behind this post given the extra week to get it out.". Last I checked marketing doesn't do **** in the production phases... yeah they take time away from people on staff to do these video interviews, but really no one really even asked for those and instead want to know details on what is going to be delivered and the status. I never want anything that seems rehearsed or perfect the more flaws the more honest it is. In software and hardware alike many a times projects are delayed, shortcuts are taken, and budgets are exhausted before the project is complete.

Want to know my real thoughts behind posting about a side option of sous vide. Yeah I just don't give a crap as I didn't shell out $2k (nor did anyone for that matter) for a sous vide machine... those run sub $200 for a quality product that I can buy right now. I'd like to know why here has even tried to sous vide in the Zymatic or Pico C units. Anyone?
 
Trevor Mack said:
That attitude was completely uncalled for. All I said is "I'll let you judge if there is any weight behind this post given the extra week to get it out.". Last I checked marketing doesn't do poopy in the production phases... yeah they take time away from people on staff to do these video interviews, but really no one really even asked for those and instead want to know details on what is going to be delivered and the status. I never want anything that seems rehearsed or perfect the more flaws the more honest it is. In software and hardware alike many a times projects are delayed, shortcuts are taken, and budgets are exhausted before the project is complete.

Want to know my real thoughts behind posting about a side option of sous vide. Yeah I just don't give a crap as I didn't shell out $2k (nor did anyone for that matter) for a sous vide machine... those run sub $200 for a quality product that I can buy right now. I'd like to know why here has even tried to sous vide in the Zymatic or Pico C units. Anyone?
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Well I can’t disagree with anything you have said. Sorry bout my post. There is just so much entitled bitching going on here I am growing weary and took it out on your post. That said I didn’t read your “let you be the judge” comments to be a neutral as you claim. But that was my interpretstion and in the end who really cares... no harm no foul, sorry to offend.

I am sure they are trying to get a quality product out as fast as they can. I guess I see no need in complaining about what they post or don’t. But that’s just me. Heck folks are FREAKING OUT when they don’t get an update on a Friday. So blessed are their lives that something like this carries so much weight to be angry about it. Lucky for them.

We will get them when they are ready for prime time regardless of what they post or don’t post. The PICO guys are doing some cool stuff here that nobody else is doing more successfully than they are. For me it is either keep my money in the game and wait til it’s ready or pull it out and move on. To sit on it and ***** is silly. But that’s me. I think some folks just like to ***** about everything and likely this thread is not an anomaly for them. And it won’t end even after delivery. Oh well.
 
Picobrew employees really shouldn't be on here harassing people behind their fictitious usernames. Didn't you report a post for a lot less than that? You are the only one on here bashing other people for their views. So what if folks on here have an attitude about Picobrew the company. You know what, all of them have facts to back up their gripes. You are only harassing folks who bash Picobrew just like you did over on the Brewie thread. You got called out over there and now you are over here doing the same thing. Give it a rest already. Picobrew isn't the end all automated brewing platform. It's got some major flaws. The company has some major flaws, just look at its employees. People have reason to complain.
 
Trevor Mack said:
That attitude was completely uncalled for. All I said is "I'll let you judge if there is any weight behind this post given the extra week to get it out.". Last I checked marketing doesn't do poopy in the production phases... yeah they take time away from people on staff to do these video interviews, but really no one really even asked for those and instead want to know details on what is going to be delivered and the status. I never want anything that seems rehearsed or perfect the more flaws the more honest it is. In software and hardware alike many a times projects are delayed, shortcuts are taken, and budgets are exhausted before the project is complete.

Want to know my real thoughts behind posting about a side option of sous vide. Yeah I just don't give a crap as I didn't shell out $2k (nor did anyone for that matter) for a sous vide machine... those run sub $200 for a quality product that I can buy right now. I'd like to know why here has even tried to sous vide in the Zymatic or Pico C units. Anyone?
Click to expand...

I actually did a lot of sous cooking in it but that was just a plus and I would definitely have given that feature up for more reliability , bug fixes and simple crap like offline. $2K is a lot of damn money for a device like this. My biggest gripe is that for the money its been a very subpar experience. The response from customer service and the rest of the company for firmware and recipe editor improvements to the existing Zymatic that they has only recently stopped selling has been basically "F off". If you fail to deliver incremental fixes on a product you can't expect educated consumers to want to hand over non trivial sums of money for another ride in the barrell.
 
Mike Howard said:
Didn't you report a post for a lot less than that? You are the only one on here bashing other people for their views. So what if folks on here have an attitude about Picobrew the company. You know what, all of them have facts to back up their gripes. You are only harassing folks who bash Picobrew just like you did over on the Brewie thread.
Click to expand...

Mike Howard said:
Picobrew employees really shouldn't be on here harassing people behind their fictitious usernames.
Click to expand...

The combined effect of these two sections of your post are the reason that your posting is sometimes problematic. All "complaints" are valid on their face, while "praise" is only posted by fictitious posters.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again - my experience with the PicoBrew company (including Kevin & others) was almost universally positive. I bought their device secondhand, and they stood behind it despite never having received a dime from me. Thats the reason why I decided to buy into the Z1 presale within the first hour of it going live - despite the fact that their previous kickstarter still had yet to deliver almost a year after the fact (and around six months late).

That said, my experience with the Zymatic has been somewhat mixed. It is (was) the perfect piece of brewing equipment for my use case, but definitely had flaws. I had the device for two-ish years - brewing maybe once a month on average - and managed to go through two step filters because of cracks. Grain often got caught in the poppets of the return ball lock quick disconnect causing issues with draining - in some cases ruining brew days.

For me, the bargain that I had to make was between the convenience the Zymatic provided in terms of my ability to execute a brew day and the risk that came with it that I wouldn't ultimately end up with a beer. For me, the ability to reclaim that time was the reason that this bargain tilted in favor of the Zymatic - even with the periodic failed brew day the net balance skewed in its favor.

All that said, it's possible to acknowledge that there are things the product or company can do better while simultaneously acknowledging the things that they do well, and it's possible to praise the things the company does right without being a "fictitious user."


Brewfreedom said:
The response from customer service and the rest of the company for firmware and recipe editor improvements to the existing Zymatic that they has only recently stopped selling has been basically "F off". If you fail to deliver incremental fixes on a product you can't expect educated consumers to want to hand over non trivial sums of money for another ride in the barrell.
Click to expand...

When the Zymatic was sold, it was sold as having the feature set that it delivered. While there are always additional features that might be nice, part of the issue is that for every person this feature set is going to be different. They did add features such as "delayed start" as well as a reworked recipe editor after release, as well as partially redesigned step filters on the hardware front. Would I have liked to see more (including a completely redesigned step filter, perhaps?) - absolutely - but I didn't buy in expecting to receive anything other than what existed when I paid.

The one feature I am bitter about is their failure to open source the firmware. While I am not an expert I do have some experience with embedded device development as well as web interfaces to hardware and would have loved the opportunity to take a stab at adding features that I might want (even if others wouldn't, necessarily). Had I been a kickstarter participant I might have standing to be angry about this - the fact that I only came in later means I am stuck on the sidelines glaring in.
 
Thorrak said:
The one feature I am bitter about is their failure to open source the firmware. While I am not an expert I do have some experience with embedded device development as well as web interfaces to hardware and would have loved the opportunity to take a stab at adding features that I might want (even if others wouldn't, necessarily). Had I been a kickstarter participant I might have standing to be angry about this - the fact that I only came in later means I am stuck on the sidelines glaring in.
Click to expand...
I was in on the kickstarter and early on they hyped the crap out of opening the platform and source. Don't care anymore since I am now recently Zymaticless but it is a source of general mistrust and I enjoy making them dance when I bring it up. Trust me they are tired of it. I'm guessing they can't open it up for investor (inbev) reasons? I can't see a company being that stupid to not want to give an inch or two to their backers and just release what is now a dead product's firmware. I also have a feeling its some potentially very bad code after spending a fair amount of time playing with its api surface/analyzing network traffic.
 
Corporate response is we might hurt ourselves and create zymatic bombs. Entire new generation of isis fighters will be programming them as ieds They apparently are not familiar with concepts like home garage based auto repair, ammunition reloading. All very common things that the mechanically inclined engage in with more risks than a tiny glycol hex loop and their $h@t code base.
 
Haven't messed with decompilers in about a decade. Shouldn't be impossible. I doubt they did code obfuscation. Maybe after deer season I'll give it a shot as a middle finger salute and let their legal team chase me. Just wont be able to test the code other than making sure it builds. Open source my arse.

"Zymatic™ firmware is based on an Arduino core and the firmware will be open source. Want another brewing profile or to add some new instrument? Go for it! We'll also define a set of web service APIs to interface with."

"You may not (i) copy or distribute, sublicense, lease, rent or otherwise transfer the Embedded Software to any third party except as incorporated in a Zymatic®; (ii) modify, adapt, alter, translate, or create derivative works of the Embedded Software; (iii) decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer or otherwise derive or attempt to derive source code from the Embedded Software;"
 
Thorrak said:
The combined effect of these two sections of your post are the reason that your posting is sometimes problematic. All "complaints" are valid on their face, while "praise" is only posted by fictitious posters.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again - my experience with the PicoBrew company (including Kevin & others) was almost universally positive. I bought their device secondhand, and they stood behind it despite never having received a dime from me. Thats the reason why I decided to buy into the Z1 presale within the first hour of it going live - despite the fact that their previous kickstarter still had yet to deliver almost a year after the fact (and around six months late).

That said, my experience with the Zymatic has been somewhat mixed. It is (was) the perfect piece of brewing equipment for my use case, but definitely had flaws. I had the device for two-ish years - brewing maybe once a month on average - and managed to go through two step filters because of cracks. Grain often got caught in the poppets of the return ball lock quick disconnect causing issues with draining - in some cases ruining brew days.

For me, the bargain that I had to make was between the convenience the Zymatic provided in terms of my ability to execute a brew day and the risk that came with it that I wouldn't ultimately end up with a beer. For me, the ability to reclaim that time was the reason that this bargain tilted in favor of the Zymatic - even with the periodic failed brew day the net balance skewed in its favor.

All that said, it's possible to acknowledge that there are things the product or company can do better while simultaneously acknowledging the things that they do well, and it's possible to praise the things the company does right without being a "fictitious user."




When the Zymatic was sold, it was sold as having the feature set that it delivered. While there are always additional features that might be nice, part of the issue is that for every person this feature set is going to be different. They did add features such as "delayed start" as well as a reworked recipe editor after release, as well as partially redesigned step filters on the hardware front. Would I have liked to see more (including a completely redesigned step filter, perhaps?) - absolutely - but I didn't buy in expecting to receive anything other than what existed when I paid.

The one feature I am bitter about is their failure to open source the firmware. While I am not an expert I do have some experience with embedded device development as well as web interfaces to hardware and would have loved the opportunity to take a stab at adding features that I might want (even if others wouldn't, necessarily). Had I been a kickstarter participant I might have standing to be angry about this - the fact that I only came in later means I am stuck on the sidelines glaring in.
Click to expand...
.Being disappointed and complaining like an adult is fine. I like both of your last two posts, they were excellent, well stated and useful. It’s the posters who lash out like petulant entitled children who feel they been slighted or have an axe to grind that doesn’t add anything here.

But I’m done with the thread anyway. Brew on! Actually I have gotten into distilling on a micro basis similar to the micro basis of my Z beer batches. So I guess maybe a simple “cheers” would be a better sign off. I bring it up because the new endeavor reminds me just how simple the Z makes the mashing and fermentation process. But it is really just too small for that and too expensive to scale up. But for the small quantities I am playing with it’s so simple. In general many of the newer distillers out there could benefit by brewing beer for a few years first.

Cheers it is...
 
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Small batch distilling has always intrigued me, I haven't looked into the equipment needed and didn't pull the trigger for the PicoStill which to me seems to be on the "very small scale" side of things.
 
@Thorrak,

You may well have had a great user experience, plenty of others have not. Would you rather people post only their good experiences? Seems rather one sided. I have maintained that I am absolutely pleased with my Zymatic, do not like how Kevin handles customers who may not agree with him and disgusted with their draconian forum tactics. Sorry if you would rather not hear that side of the story.

While my posts are negative towards the company, I try to post informative information about taking care of your Zymatic and not have to rely on Picobrew CS or, God forbid, having to send your unit back. I am outsourcing parts for my Zymatic and testing individual components with the intent to pass that info on to folks who want to continue to brew into the future. I sure don't see any of that kind of support from Picobrew. Your Zymatic is dead to them. Sunset is just around the corner.

I'm pretty sure I have never attacked anyone over their support of the Zymatic. Have I countered their praise of the CS department and the company? Of course, every company has its issues and I'd rather not turn a blind eye to the bad. I think its best to go in knowing all sides and make an informed buying decision.

But hey, if you don't want my help, I'm ok with that. No big deal. I'll help those who do want it. And yea, you may have to deal with a Picobrew slam here and there, small price to pay for keeping your Zymatic alive. ;-)
 
The guy who runs the biggest non pico corporate zymatic group on facebook bashes them all the time. Calls the Z the ponZi. Havent seen the employees there in a while. When they appear its usually negative in response to customer complaints which imo is incredibly unprofessional. But you are dealing w a marketing and cs crew there that has literally never had a real job. Pico is it. (Doug you need to lock down your profile bro. Millenials sheesh). The last time i was there it did not look like folks were happy about the massively delayed schedule but were otherwise content. Gonna be a different story if this turns out like the picostill debacle. I bet the refunds/cancellations are creeping deep into the high 6 figures at this point. Get your cash while its still there ;)
 
Some data from my HEX testing using the recipe I posted before.

upload_2018-11-7_14-37-25.png


Data from 9/28 was the last time I ran the test before Fatal Error #1 and #17 prevented me from running.

I fixed my HEX loop on 10/2 and the data after that shows what is normal. You should have no more than a 10 F degree difference between the Wort and HL1/2 sensors.

I've developed a step by step procedure w/photos, to fix the HEX loop and I am awaiting feedback from several others who are using it to fix their system.
 
Just ordered two of these with lids to go along with my new Stainless Steel step filter a buddy is building for me....say goodbye to cracked step filters and one less thing to rely on Picobrew for.

20160725-picobrewfilter-12x8.5x5.7.8-400-16gaugeflatbar.jpg
 
Mike Howard said:
Just ordered two of these with lids to go along with my new Stainless Steel step filter a buddy is building for me....say goodbye to cracked step filters and one less thing to rely on Picobrew for.

20160725-picobrewfilter-12x8.5x5.7.8-400-16gaugeflatbar.jpg
Click to expand...
I had one of those from ArborFab /w the lid. Absolutely loved it, but it didn’t help with step filter cracking at all.

...unless of course you mean you’re replacing the polycarbonate step filter with a custom stainless one as well, in which case - bravo! I will be curious as to how that works out thermally - the only potential pitfalls I see are potential for scalding on the front of the filter & how well it holds temperature vs the PC.
 
Yea, I re-engineered the step filter to house the new grain cage and simplify its manufacturing. All of my screens are broken as the corner weld that is on them is junk. I really wanted to outsource those and the step filter and since a good friend of mine welds stainless, he offered to build the prototype.

I'll also be modifying several other key components as time goes on....
 
I finally got around to fixing my screens as they were beginning to be real PITA's. It will be awhile before the step filter prototype is completed and I still need to brew... Got some stainless steel corner brackets and stainless steel rivets to fix the crappy corner welds.

20181130_160545.jpg
20181130_160601.jpg
20181130_160611.jpg
20181130_160907.jpg
 
Mike Howard said:
I finally got around to fixing my screens as they were beginning to be real PITA's. It will be awhile before the step filter prototype is completed and I still need to brew... Got some stainless steel corner brackets and stainless steel rivets to fix the crappy corner welds.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised you're using those screens at all if you have the grain cage /w lid. I found the "grain chamber" step filter screens became superfluous once I had the grain cage.
 
Well, it finally happened. My Zymatic is dead...

Blew a breaker yesterday right in the middle of brewing....dang Christmas lights anyway...now the Zymatic powers up and everything seems to run OK, but the heating element no longer heats the wort.

I guess I'm going to have to tear it down piece by piece to find the culprit. Already did some quick checks but no luck. Fuse is ok, power supply is ok, power relay is ok, SSR is ok...board is telling the heating element to turn on...last thing to check is the bottom end. Going to pull the heating element and see if it shorted or there is something in there I missed.
 
Looks like the heating element is bad...shorted out and that's probably what caused the breaker to trip. It's very apparent that the wires leading into the element got really hot, melted and the outer heat shield crumbled. Already found a source and ordered a replacement. Looks like my glycol loop is a couple ounces short again as well, so it's a great time to top it off.

20181209_103359.jpg
 
Mike Howard said:
Looks like the heating element is bad...shorted out and that's probably what caused the breaker to trip. It's very apparent that the wires leading into the element got really hot, melted and the outer heat shield crumbled. Already found a source and ordered a replacement. Looks like my glycol loop is a couple ounces short again as well, so it's a great time to top it off.

View attachment 601576
Click to expand...

Wait i thought the zymatic and the z were “pro” level gear based on their marketing? So they arent using wiring capable of handling 3-4 hours of heat per session? What a potentially dangerous pile of garbage.
 
BrunDog said:
Wow! They use a RIMs tube to perform the heating? That explains why it doesn’t boil aggressively I suppose.
Click to expand...
That RIMS tube is on the glycol side of the heat exchanger and the glycol gets above 212 degrees. The wort itself is only heated to 207 degrees and is not boiled.

Hey Mike - that looks like a cartridge heater of some kind. Did you get a make and model that you can share?

Thanks
 
Mike Howard said:
I ordered a Dernord replacement on Amazon, but the specifics are:

120V 1500W
19mm x 203mm
3/4 NPT

The part number on the cartridge did not reveal any search results but here is what is listed:

PB-OS-HX-2014 19*203 120V1500W BD12-173 20160115
Click to expand...


Thanks - hope I don't ever need one, but that is good information to have.
 
I got the part replaced and its all buttoned up and just finished a clean cycle without issue. Took the time to replace the source wires with high temp 10 AWG, placed inside a high temp loom and rerouted so it made more sense. Topped off the glycol loop and retightened the pex clamps on some of the hoses that didn't get new ones.

20181214_125852.jpg
 

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