Phosphoric acid

[loudrail]

I've just started playing with the Bru n Water calculator to try and get my horrible well water manageable to use. I'm still a little worried that I may be needing to much phosphoric acid to help get my pH to the desired level.

What its calling for is 8.1mL for 6.5 gallons of strike water and 13.6ml for 10.91 gallons of sparge water. That shows to put my mash ph at 5.3. This is 85% acid

 

[Homercidal]

With Phos. there is little danger in adding too much and affecting taste. Without seeing your water profile and grain bill, it's impossible to even get an idea of what's too much for adjusting pH.

But those numbers seem reasonable if you have relatively high alkalinity.

If you post your water chemistry and your grain bill, someone can do a quick check and validate your measurement.

 

[bhouston]

That's exactly what I do when brewing. I typically use between 13 and 16mls depending on the grain bill. Works perfectly and I nail the pH about 99.9% of the time using the Bru'n Water Calculator.

My brewing partner and I did a taste test with a bunch of water treatment additives (Calcium Chloride, Gypsum, Lactic, Phosphoric etc) and you couldn't detect ANY taste with the Phosporic even at way higher concentrations than you would ever use in brewing. Lactic acid was close behind but you got some sourness at higher ppms.

 

[Iseneye]

At what concentration could you pick up the lactic taste?

 

[bhouston]

I'm not sure of the actual ppm. We used like 4 mls in 6 oz's of water. We couldn't detect it at 4 ml but when upped to something like 16 mls we could taste (at least we thought) a bit of sourness.

 

[loudrail]

This is my water report. The acid amounts are after I've diluted with 70% RO

pH 7.7
Sodium 184
Potassium 1
Calcium 118
Mg 39
Total Hardness 458
Sulfate 99
Chloride 76
Carbonate <1.0
Bicarbonate 531
Total Alkanlinity 437

 

[Homercidal]

The grain bill for your recipe would help as well, but if those numbers are right (I'm not sure they are, but I'm not a scientist) then you have a LOT of alkalinity! I don't think your acid use is excessive, but with a grain bill we can better validate.

Remember, the grain you use in a recipe can change the amount of acid you would need to drive your mash pH down into the proper range for the enzymes to do their job, and will also change how much acid you will need to bring sparge water down into a pH that will prevent tannin extraction.

If you use more roasted grains, they will contribute acids to the mash and make your acid requirement a bit less. You still have a huge amount of alkalinity, so you will probably have to use a good amount of acid in any recipe. If you need enough acid that it affects the flavor of the beer, you may consider using some RO water to dilute the alkalinity.

 

[twistyboy]

This is my water report. The acid amounts are after I've diluted with 70% RO

pH 7.7
Sodium 184
Potassium 1
Calcium 118
Mg 39
Total Hardness 458
Sulfate 99
Chloride 76
Carbonate <1.0
Bicarbonate 531
Total Alkanlinity 437

Your Sodium and bicarbonate are Super high.You can boil to remove the bicarbonate.The lactic acid ppm taste level is around 400 ppm.

 

[Homercidal]

Your Sodium and bicarbonate are Super high.You can boil to remove the bicarbonate.The lactic acid ppm taste level is around 400 ppm.

Yeah, forgot to mention the sodium levels. Not sure what you can do to reduce that except dilute with RO. I'd have to look up the amount that affects flavor negatively. Some people prefer a somewhat high sodium level in their beer. I've even seen people shake a little salt into their bottle of beer!

 

[twistyboy]

Yeah, forgot to mention the sodium levels. Not sure what you can do to reduce that except dilute with RO. I'd have to look up the amount that affects flavor negatively. Some people prefer a somewhat high sodium level in their beer. I've even seen people shake a little salt into their bottle of beer!

From 70-150 ppm it rounds out the beers flavors and accentuate the sweetness of the malts, especially in combinaison with the chloride ions.Does your water is softened with a salt-based water softener?

 

[loudrail]

The grain bill consists of
13lbs 2-row
4lbs Flaked corn
1 lb minute rice

 

[ajdelange]

Your Sodium and bicarbonate are Super high.You can boil to remove the bicarbonate.The lactic acid ppm taste level is around 400 ppm.

With 8.7 mVal alkalinity and only 5.9 mVal calcium hardness he isn't going to have much luck removing bicarbonate with boiling or lime unless he augments the calcium to 8.7 mVal or more. With sulfate and chloride at the levels they are, he hasn't much headroom for doing that unless he wants to do high sulfate beers. Add that to the high sodium and it's pretty clear this is throw-away water.

 

[twistyboy]

With 8.7 mVal alkalinity and only 5.9 mVal calcium hardness he isn't going to have much luck removing bicarbonate with boiling or lime unless he augments the calcium to 8.7 mVal or more. With sulfate and chloride at the levels they are, he hasn't much headroom for doing that unless he wants to do high sulfate beers. Add that to the high sodium and it's pretty clear this is throw-away water.

agreed

 

[loudrail]

So,diluting the well water with 70% RO water and adding the acid, Bru n Water shows the finished water profile to be this

Calcium 36
Mg 11.7
Sodium 60.8
Sulfate 89.8
Chloride 25.6
Bicarbonate -4.4
Total Hardness 138

 

[twistyboy]

So,diluting the well water with 70% RO water and adding the acid, Bru n Water shows the finished water profile to be this

Calcium 36
Mg 11.7
Sodium 60.8
Sulfate 89.8
Chloride 25.6
Bicarbonate -4.4
Total Hardness 138

looks good, i would add calcium chloride to go like 100 ppm each.

 

[ajdelange]

Bicarbonate -4.4

Negative bicarbonate?

 

[loudrail]

Just an update...
After making the recommended additions and checking my mash pH, it has lowered from 5.9/6 to 5.4. Hopefully this will help correct the astringent taste that I have been getting. Thanks for the help

 

[Homercidal]

Do you batch sparge, or fly sparge?

Sparging with a high temp, or a High pH can create astringency from the husks. You want to target a pH of less than 6 for your sparge water. Try to sparge with water less than 170F.

 

[extrawurst]

Hi guys!
Tomorrow I'll be using 75% phosporic acid for the first time (I usually used lactic). I calculated the amount, and got 0.35ml/l for mashing and 0.5ml/l for my sparging water for a pale beer. This is a bit more acid then I would normaly use but this time I'm brewing with different water(without a RO possibility). Is this amount high enough to taste the phosphoric acid or am I worring too much?

 

[helibrewer]

Hi guys!
Tomorrow I'll be using 75% phosporic acid for the first time (I usually used lactic). I calculated the amount, and got 0.35ml/l for mashing and 0.5ml/l for my sparging water for a pale beer. This is a bit more acid then I would normaly use but this time I'm brewing with different water(without a RO possibility). Is this amount high enough to taste the phosphoric acid or am I worring too much?

That will be well below the taste threshold which is higher for phosphoric than it is for lactic.

 

[dlester]

I read your water numbers and see that you've got big numbers like mine. I use water from a well that is 450 PPM, while most of Los Angeles is 50 PPM.

I cured most of the issue by using three filters. The first is sized as 1, the next sized at .50. The third filter is charcoal. I run water through it slowly, or something similar to sparging but slightly faster. I was able to move the PPM down to 150 PPM.

Regarding the Acid you are using. I too switched to this type of Acid. I understand that it is used in Sodas. It's a great acid for beer because it's not as detectable as the others. However, at large amounts, it is detectable, but it isn't bad or sour.

Good luck on your next brew,

.

 

[ajdelange]

I read your water numbers and see that you've got big numbers like mine. I use water from a well that is 450 PPM, while most of Los Angeles is 50 PPM.

PPM of what?

I cured most of the issue by using three filters. The first is sized as 1, the next sized at .50. The third filter is charcoal. I run water through it slowly, or something similar to sparging but slightly faster. I was able to move the PPM down to 150 PPM.

Again I ask 'PPM of what?' because particulate filters and charcoal filters don't remove any dissolved minerals.

Regarding the Acid you are using. I too switched to this type of Acid. I understand that it is used in Sodas.

It is. That is why sodas used to be called 'Phosphates'.