PH Meter Replacement
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I like any meter that can pass the stability test described at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256
This Hach meter happens to do that and so I do like it but I also think the MW102 and the Omega similar to the Hach are also good meters for the money. There are lots of others out there too but they tend to be more expensive.
It is not surprising that the water works guy recommended Hach as they are suppliers to the water industry but I have seen other brands in a water works.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the information. im actually not trying to start a debate if you can believe it. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong... (I also shoot for the 5.2 to 5.6 window)
I have noticed a big improvement in my beers since adjusting my ph water. Also noticed RO water takes away less lactic acid to adjust the ph than tap water... I bought one of those cheap TDS meters to measure the effectiveness of my RO setup and give me an indication of when the filters may need to be changed..
Been using cheap ph and TDS meters for over a year now and they just seem to be easier that messing with solutions and replacement probes for what I would have considered somthing needing higher resolution.
I have noticed a big improvement in my beers since adjusting my ph water. Also noticed RO water takes away less lactic acid to adjust the ph than tap water... I bought one of those cheap TDS meters to measure the effectiveness of my RO setup and give me an indication of when the filters may need to be changed..
Been using cheap ph and TDS meters for over a year now and they just seem to be easier that messing with solutions and replacement probes for what I would have considered somthing needing higher resolution.
SteveH aka shetc
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Well, I have been using strips to test my tap water, and the pH value has been very consistent over time. So either the strips are stable or my tap water is changing at the same rate that the strips are drifting. Whether the strips are accurate remains to be seen. I have just made a pale ale using RO water for the first time, along with acidulated malt to adjust the pH. I'll let you know how it turns out.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
This is the meter I bought 2 months ago... My older one is similar with a smaller non lit display.
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SteveH aka shetc
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Thanks, A.J.!
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
Guess my HI2002 fits the bill!
I think the bill would frighten off most folks here. The electrodes for that meter cost more than what most want to pay for the whole kit. Looks like a good meter, though.
Yes, most won't pay for it. I'm ok with it though and hope in the long run, it will even out.
Funny though how much is spent on kettles, panels, etc but for something so important, they skimp.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
So elaborate then please on what your suggesting and why?
What will the high end meter accomplish for making beer that the cheap one wont?
Will sparge water that 5.2 really result in different tasting beer than one thats made with 5.3 ph water? Has anyone ever done an actual testing on this? Won't the variance in grain change this from Bach to batch anyway?
Also it doesn't follow that people who are heavily invested in this hobby don't have a higher end pH meter.
What we are suggesting is that it is possible to get an appropriate quality pH meter for very little money. This gets you started with measuring and adjusting pH which is definitely important to making quality beer. It doesn't need to be a $100+ investment just to get started
What we are suggesting is that it is possible to get an appropriate quality pH meter for very little money. This gets you started with measuring and adjusting pH which is definitely important to making quality beer. It doesn't need to be a $100+ investment just to get started
I'm suggesting that folks spend hundreds to thousands on other shiny gear that usually has less of an impact but are afraid to spend a couple hundred on a pice of gear that has a greater impact.
Try not to read too deep into it.
Try not to read too deep into it.
I understand precisely what you mean. However you don't provide any actual evidence to support that assertion, you are just saying that people who have some expensive things don't have other expensive things.
It also looks like your Hi2002 is precisely the sort of thing you are criticising others for having, you are well past the point of diminishing returns for brewing purposes with that meter. Yet you enjoy having it for use with this hobby. Nothing wrong with that
It also looks like your Hi2002 is precisely the sort of thing you are criticising others for having, you are well past the point of diminishing returns for brewing purposes with that meter. Yet you enjoy having it for use with this hobby. Nothing wrong with that
Ahhh, Bach!
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I was attempting to use a new piece of chit verizon tablet they gave me in a trade in deal with my last phone... The touchscreen is downright terrible.
I'm not criticizing them for having them because in all honesty, I have the meter, the shiny kettle, and the panel. The point I am trying to make is when someone spends money on a less important item but says another is too expensive.
I bought a better meter for multiple reasons. One of which is I feel it will be more accurate and last longer.
Keep buying your $10 meter. Honestly, I could care less. I think though that with cheaper, to a certain point, you lose the accuracy and durability of said component. You guys also make a big deal over how +/- .1 isn't a huge deal and you are likely correct. But you are also assuming that your meter is calibrating correctly and is also displaying the correct data on the screen vs what your sample really is. I guess I don't 100% buy it. But who cares, it's not my beer or processes. So does it really matter?
It was clear what you meant but i couldn't resist and it does clearly have something to do with the MASH. Also, as it came from Verizon I assume the
'c' should be an 's'?
I know exactly what you are saying and agree. I think at times the size of an item gives the false impression that somehow makes it more acceptable to buy at a higher price than a small item. One thing my step father taught me that he passed down from his dad was "we can't afford to buy cheap" - the premise being a few points, one could be that the cheaper product will fail and then require you to rebuy another unit which overall or in the longer run can cost more than buying the better model outright (which I've experienced firsthand) or two, you won't ever be fully happy since you always wanted the better one and will continue to wish for it and eventually buy it anyway (also something I've experienced first hand).
Of course, the question is to know when to just get the better model. I'm looking now to replace my Milwaukee pH56 and this is after a recent probe replacement. In this instance it probably would've been smarter to go with a better meter upfront. Other times though the cheaper item has held up just fine, like my Agata bench capper.
Everyone has their reasonable price point however. What's cheap or reasonable to you or I might be way too expensive for another and hence there will always be arguments and demands to qualify the value of a purchase. Unfortunately there's really no way to jump into the future and say, "well I'm still using my pH meter in 10 years from now but you will have bought a new meter every year with the cost and shipping equating to more than my meter costs and your accuracy isn't as high resolution as mine." or "you were right, my pricey meter failed after only 16 months!".
Rev.
Well said, Rev.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Point made, in this case though with the amount of people having to buy expensive replacement probes for their expensive lab grade meters and so many threads complaining or failures and maintenance I just dont see the point?
The expensive meters require more work and even then appear to not any more reliable, and the accuracy is just not needed? Many people buy the expensive kettles because they dont want to look at an old igloo cooler or beat up mismatched kettles, They have limited budgets and want to put that money to use where they feel it will have the biggest impact.... Since the ph just has to be in a window of say 5.2 and 5.6 I dont see pricey meter being justified, especially for many homebrewers who only brew a handful of times a year.(Especially when so many home brewers dont even treat their water!) You dont have to stare at and work with your ph meter during the whole brew session like something like a kettle or even a fermenter. A ph meter just needs to do its job and then get tucked away out of sight unlike the other expensive stuff and "bling" that we homebrewers are often buying.
BTW my first $11 meter I bought over a year ago still works fine..I bought the second one for a backup and to have the lit display.. both my meters are easily recalibrated and came with the solutions to do so. I can easily check the calibration by comparing the two which is something not easily done with the pricey meters unless you want to buy 2 and double your high costs.
I Guess I'll find out if I will brew long enough to go through the what 20? cheap meters to equal one of the cheaper high dollar ones without even factoring in all the replacement probes? lets face it here we are talking like 20 to 30 times the cost in comparison not and extra 20% or so for many other "upgrades" if I were making medicines or curing cancer I'd be all for it but its homemade beer. Most make it and enjoy it without any meter at all.
The expensive meters require more work and even then appear to not any more reliable, and the accuracy is just not needed? Many people buy the expensive kettles because they dont want to look at an old igloo cooler or beat up mismatched kettles, They have limited budgets and want to put that money to use where they feel it will have the biggest impact.... Since the ph just has to be in a window of say 5.2 and 5.6 I dont see pricey meter being justified, especially for many homebrewers who only brew a handful of times a year.(Especially when so many home brewers dont even treat their water!) You dont have to stare at and work with your ph meter during the whole brew session like something like a kettle or even a fermenter. A ph meter just needs to do its job and then get tucked away out of sight unlike the other expensive stuff and "bling" that we homebrewers are often buying.
BTW my first $11 meter I bought over a year ago still works fine..I bought the second one for a backup and to have the lit display.. both my meters are easily recalibrated and came with the solutions to do so. I can easily check the calibration by comparing the two which is something not easily done with the pricey meters unless you want to buy 2 and double your high costs.
I Guess I'll find out if I will brew long enough to go through the what 20? cheap meters to equal one of the cheaper high dollar ones without even factoring in all the replacement probes? lets face it here we are talking like 20 to 30 times the cost in comparison not and extra 20% or so for many other "upgrades" if I were making medicines or curing cancer I'd be all for it but its homemade beer. Most make it and enjoy it without any meter at all.
Are you saying you adjust your water prior to mashing or sparging?
The point is to adjust the mash (or sparge while in contact with grains). Measuring and adjusting raw water does not mean your mash is within range. It's the grains that have all the buffering power, not the water.
Most people adjust there water using prediction tools or recordings from prior brews. As we all know the majority of conversion happens within 10-15 minutes, hence why there are threads about 15 minute mashes. If you're only adjusting after taking that first reading I'd have to wonder if you are most likely past the point of most damage being done.
I always treat my mash and sparge water. One tool at a certain setting would recommend far too high lactic amounts, but I knew that already from prior pH readings and would only use what I knew to be more accurate. I've since found a setting in that tool (use beer color instead) and have gone over my past 3 brews comparing the tools pH estimate using the lactic amounts with water treatments I used and what my pH meter readings were and have found it be extremely accurate.
Rev.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
See this is why I asked if I was missing something. Yes I am just adjusting my hlt water... My water normally has a ph of 7.8-8.0 so adjusting it down to 5.2 has helped tremendously for lighter beers... I realized the grain worked as a buffer (one of the reasons for acid malt right?) and I realized darker beers were more forgiving because the roasted malt brought the ph down but I havent really checked my ph after mash in... something I will try..
Rev2010 what prediction tool are you using? I will look into that also.
You can use Brun' Water or Brewer's Friend. I'm still currently using Brewer's Friend though I plan to try Brun' Water more soon. Brewer's Friend's calc was suggesting lactic acid amounts that were just too high when I was using the grain bill mode. Since then I've switched to using the beer color mode which works by inputting the grain weight, SRM, and percentage of roasted malts in the grain bill (if there are none input 0). That mode seems to match up to the mash pH readings I've taken and lactic amounts used to within about .1ml - .2ml of suggested lactic amounts. In other words, if I input that I am shooting for a mash pH of 5.35 it suggests using 4.1ml of lactic acid when I used 4ml and got the 5.35 reading from my pH meter. Of course, there's always the likelihood that the meter could be slightly off, but either way I'm right where I want to be. At least it's matched up to the readings notes I've taken for the last three brews I've did.
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator
Rev.
Yeah, it does no good to simply adjust your water to the correct PH... it will change as soon as it hits the grains.
I also use Brewers Friend... some people don't like it and prefer Bru'n Water, but I find BF to be the easiest to use (I also use color instead of grain).
Since I know my water report, when the grains and volumes are entered, I'm always within a few tenths of predicted, but it's always good to check with a PH meter since water profiles will change depending on the supply and time of year.
I also use Brewers Friend... some people don't like it and prefer Bru'n Water, but I find BF to be the easiest to use (I also use color instead of grain).
Since I know my water report, when the grains and volumes are entered, I'm always within a few tenths of predicted, but it's always good to check with a PH meter since water profiles will change depending on the supply and time of year.
I'm thinking I may have misread. I took it originally that you were saying to only treat the water after mashing in, but now I'm re-reading and seeing you were responding to Auggie seeming to suggest that he is treating his water *but to lower the pH of the water itself* and that of course is not the goal since the grains will have an effect on the pH and buffering potential.
So yes, water should be pretreated to either a general prediction of the mash pH based on the water profile and grains (or similar method such as beer SRM/grain weight) or be treated based on past pH recordings for the same recipe and water profile. Water should not be treated to simply lower it's own inherent pH.
Rev.
I have the Milwaukee 102. I replaced the probe once...ONCE. Then I bought a Hach pocket pro Plus based on a three discussing this same question with multiple detailed responses by AJDelange, and esteemed HBT member with extensive knowledge and expertise in the realm of water chemistry. Inexpensive in th grand scheme, and easy to use.
TD
TD
There are two goals in mashing. One is to bring the water to the desired pH and the other is to bring the grains to the desired pH. It's pretty easy to do the former without the grains present but impossible to do the latter without the water present. A lot of brewers take the approach of setting the water pH to the desired mash pH. This effectively zeroes out the water as a cause of high mash pH. If one knows about how much acid it takes to move his grain bill (and this can be estimated) all he has to do is add that amount to water he has already set to mash pH and he is ready to roll or at least ready to do a test mash which should get him pretty close.
Right, but that wasn't the overall point, I'm simply agreeing with AcidRain in saying that simply treating your mash water to lower its pH to, say 5.2, isn't the proper way to get a mash pH of 5.2 once the grains are added. Both need to be taken into account. Again, I'll admit I misread the replies between Augie and AcidRain. I thought AcidRain was saying to only add water treatments after mashing in and taking a reading when he was actually responding to Augie believing that, from his past reply, he was only pre-treating his water with the sole intention of bringing it down to the mash pH he desired.
Rev.
