pH: How important is adjusting for pH

[kh54s10]

I used to live where I apparently had great water. I never got into water or pH adjustments, 1) because my beers were good. 2) because I didn't get around to sending off a sample or buying a meter.

I am questioning how soon I will get into really checking water and pH since I don't think the water where I am now is nearly as versatile as it was. I have always thought I would make the step into water treatment, but it seems more important now.

 

[kh54s10]

On a side note. A couple of years ago there was a thread asking about inexpensive pen type meters. Back then it was generally that they are unreliable and you need to buy a good, approximately $100 meter or you are wasting your time or they would be too inaccurate.

Anyone find a good one for less than $50?

 

[Blazinlow86]

Seems when I was shopping for one they were either 20$ or 100$+. Not much in between. Cheers

 

[couchsending]

The best professional breweries check PH

Mash
Sparge Water
Final Runnings
Kettle Full
Knock Out
During fermentation
Final gravity

The crappy ones never bother

You want to make truely great beer you need to know your water and the effect pH has on every aspect of the brewing process.

 

[ajdelange]

That's arguable. When addressing professional brewers on the subject I ask "How many of you check pH and have never had more than perhaps a third respond that they do. I can't attest as to whether this group contained the best brewers in the room. I have also had professional brewers tell me "You home brewers take this stuff much more seriously than we do."

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Perhaps there should be a category for "I monitor mash pH to make my 'repeat' recipes taste consistently the same" (from one batch to the next).

All else being identical, flavor differences from one batch to another for the exact same recipe could be caused by different lots of malts/grains/adjuncts measurably drifting the mash pH upward or downward from batch to batch.

But to utilize pH monitoring at this level requires the testing of malts/grains/adjuncts in advance of brewing for each new purchase (new lot #) of these grist components. I presume the major breweries practice this consistently.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

That's arguable. When addressing professional brewers on the subject I ask "How many of you check pH and have never had more than perhaps a third respond that they do. I can't attest as to whether this group contained the best brewers in the room. I have also had professional brewers tell me "You home brewers take this stuff much more seriously than we do."

Well, so much for my presumption.

 

[couchsending]

I’ve been fortunate to pick the brains of five to six brewers in my general region who’ve won lots of medals at GABF, WBC, or have highly regarded beers on the Advocate. Most have shown me brew logs and have been pretty forthcoming about their process. Every one of those brewers/breweries is religious about pH being in spec at many spots during production. Obviously when you have to produce a consistent product time in and time out pH can be a good indication of what’s happening before going to sensory, but still it’s worth doing to better understabd the process and what’s happening along the way.

The beer produced right around where I live is generally pretty mediocre at best. I know specifically of three breweries whose beer I can’t stand that never check pH nor care about water. It shows in their beers (especially the pale ones). They have all the tell tale signs of not understanding water and pH. I’m always amazed when I taste them. It would be so easy to fix and make much more enjoyable beer.

Granted I think for some styles pH is more important along the way than others. Hoppy beers in particular.

 

[hopjuice_71]

I posted this in a different pH thread but I'll post it here as well, just in case anyone has some thoughts relevant to the importance of pH.

I've spent a career researching enzymes similar to barley amylases and enzymes in this class have broad pH optima. The barley amylases retain >90% of their activity over a pH range of ~4.5 - 6.5, so the claims of efficiency and FG changing with mash pH have never computed for me. The studies I have seen on this don't statistically back up the claims either. I thought, however, that perhaps the favours of the beers may be affected by the mash pH and that is why many people seem to agonize over pH so much. However, when I have looked into this, the sensory data I have seen (not much in truth) is pretty weak and did not convincingly link mash pH to strong impacts on flavour.

I would really appreciate it if someone could point me to some good primary literature on studies where mash pH impacts the quality of the final product. I tend to pay attention to mash pH but this would help justify my continued attention to it.

Cheers

 

[sixhotdogneck]

I posted this in a different pH thread but I'll post it here as well, just in case anyone has some thoughts relevant to the importance of pH.

I've spent a career researching enzymes similar to barley amylases and enzymes in this class have broad pH optima. The barley amylases retain >90% of their activity over a pH range of ~4.5 - 6.5, so the claims of efficiency and FG changing with mash pH have never computed for me. The studies I have seen on this don't statistically back up the claims either. I thought, however, that perhaps the favours of the beers may be affected by the mash pH and that is why many people seem to agonize over pH so much. However, when I have looked into this, the sensory data I have seen (not much in truth) is pretty weak and did not convincingly link mash pH to strong impacts on flavour.

I would really appreciate it if someone could point me to some good primary literature on studies where mash pH impacts the quality of the final product. I tend to pay attention to mash pH but this would help justify my continued attention to it.

Cheers

Adjusting mash pH may help prevent tannin extraction from the husk when water with high alkalinity is used to mash/sparge. The concept of neutralizing alkalinity is probably of greater value than mash pH.

Adjusting mash pH prepares the wort pH for the boil. The concept of boil pH (starting/ending) is probably of greater value.

Though not considered "scientific" by some but none-the-less:
http://brulosophy.com/2017/07/24/wa...e-impact-of-high-mash-ph-exbeeriment-results/
http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/30/wa...he-impact-of-low-mash-ph-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yeast is a powerful pH modifier, and it will work hard to bring the pH to its liking while actively in the process of turning wort into beer. Notice that for the Brulosophy exbeeriments with both high and low pH during the mash that the final beer pH readings between the mash pH normal beer and the mash pH deviant beer were much closer together.

 

[ajdelange]

I’ve been fortunate to pick the brains of five to six brewers in my general region who’ve won lots of medals at GABF, WBC, or have highly regarded beers on the Advocate. Most have shown me brew logs and have been pretty forthcoming about their process. Every one of those brewers/breweries is religious about pH being in spec at many spots during production. Obviously when you have to produce a consistent product time in and time out pH can be a good indication of what’s happening before going to sensory, but still it’s worth doing to better understabd the process and what’s happening along the way.

No question that this is the best way to go which is why I was surprised that so few did it. Now that was five or so years ago.

I tried to talk the brewer/CEO of the pub I'm invested in into measuring pH. Said he hadn't touched a pH meter since UCD. I even gave him one and a pretty good one too. As far as I know it has sat in a drawer.

 

[ajdelange]

Adjusting mash pH may help prevent tannin extraction from the husk when water with high alkalinity is used to mash/sparge. The concept of neutralizing alkalinity is probably of greater value than mash pH.

The reason we neutralize alkalinity is that high alkalinity results in high mash pH. We neutralize the alkalinity of the water and of the malt to the extent necessary to set mash pH where we want it to be.

 

[Blazinlow86]

No question that this is the best way to go which is why I was surprised that so few did it. Now that was five or so years ago.

I tried to talk the brewer/CEO of the pub I'm invested in into measuring pH. Said he hadn't touched a pH meter since UCD. I even gave him one and a pretty good one too. As far as I know it has sat in a drawer.

Seriously a pro setup that's not even bothering with ph..... Hopefully your not invested in the brewing side lol. Cheers

 

[sixhotdogneck]

The reason we neutralize alkalinity is that high alkalinity results in high mash pH. We neutralize the alkalinity of the water and of the malt to the extent necessary to set mash pH where we want it to be.

Just neutralize the alkalinity and be done with it. Malt alkalinity/acidity with respect to "ideal" mash pH should then be less of (or not even) a concern... unless you're also adjusting for boil pH because you don't believe in your yeast.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Just neutralize the alkalinity and be done with it.

So are you saying to use pure RO or distilled water in the mash and be done with it?

Malt alkalinity/acidity with respect to "ideal" mash pH should then be less of (or not even) a concern...

What is an "ideal" pH? Is it the same pH used when mashing every combination of grains for every style of beer.

...unless you're also adjusting for boil pH because you don't believe in your yeast.

Experience has shown me that controlling pH in the mash propagates all the way through to the pH of the beer on tap. Never thought of a reason why boil pH could be of interest.

 

[MSK_Chess]

On a side note. A couple of years ago there was a thread asking about inexpensive pen type meters. Back then it was generally that they are unreliable and you need to buy a good, approximately $100 meter or you are wasting your time or they would be too inaccurate.

Anyone find a good one for less than $50?

I use a Milwaukee ph55, its awesome, you need to care for it though by making sure its kept moist. Compared to the cheap Chinese manufactured pH pens its night and day, a lab grade instrument I believe.

i measure not only mash pH but kettle pH too and adjust it using a small portion of Lactobacillus infused wort that I prepared beforehand. It has the advantage that you can adjust it at any time.

 

[MSK_Chess]

So are you saying to use pure RO or distilled water in the mash and be done with it?

What is an "ideal" pH? Is it the same pH used when mashing every combination of grains for every style of beer.

Experience has shown me that controlling pH in the mash propagates all the way through to the pH of the beer on tap. Never thought of a reason why boil pH could be of interest.

Its meant to be that you get better hop utilisation in the kettle with a slightly higher kettle pH according to German brewing scientist Kunze. Protein and break precipitation are also said to be better with slightly lower kettle pH, again according to Kunze. For these reasons I wait until near the end of the boil to sightly acidify the kettle. That being said, at home-brew level there is probably nothing in it.

 

[MSK_Chess]

it seems that the science for the optimal pH range for beta amylase is quite broad, some reporting as low as pH 4.0 others as high as pH 5.5

http://www.worthington-biochem.com/BA/default.html

 

[ajdelange]

Just neutralize the alkalinity and be done with it. Malt alkalinity/acidity with respect to "ideal" mash pH should then be less of (or not even) a concern...

Not even close to being true. In a typical mash the waters alkalinity will be less than half the malt's alkalinity.

unless you're also adjusting for boil pH because you don't believe in your yeast.

Getting kettle pH correct is important but if you get mash pH correct kettle pH will be about right. You do not set mash pH to get kettle pH right, however. You do it to get the best beer. Having the kettle pH turn out about right (though sometimes it needs to be adjusted too) is frosting on the cake.

 

[couchsending]

pH beyond mash is especially important for highly hopped beers. You get better Alpha utilization above 5.4 but not many people are looking for bitterness in their hoppy beers at the moment, in fact the opposite. The more hops you add in the kettle/WP the higher your PH goes. If that falls out of spec at KO then your yeast might have to work that much harder or might not get even be able to get down to a low enough pH (especially for all those people that like to throw piles of hops in during fermentation). Then you add dry hops and now you’re crazy high and diacetyl uptake is inhibited and you end up with muddy buttery hoppy beer.

 

[sixhotdogneck]

Not even close to being true. In a typical mash the waters alkalinity will be less than half the malt's alkalinity.

Have you ever made a beer by neutralizing the waters alkalinity, mashing, adjusting boil pH and fermenting? If you had you would realize the folly of your mash pH prediction calculators.

Getting kettle pH correct is important but if you get mash pH correct kettle pH will be about right. You do not set mash pH to get kettle pH right, however. You do it to get the best beer. Having the kettle pH turn out about right (though sometimes it needs to be adjusted too) is frosting on the cake.

Mash pH carries over to the boil.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Well, so much for my presumption.

Mine, too. I never would have guessed that.

 

[ajdelange]

Have you ever made a beer by neutralizing the waters alkalinity, mashing, adjusting boil pH and fermenting?

I'm not sure that I can answer that question as in all my beers the water's alkalinity has been neutralized as has the malts'. I have, thus, never had to adjust the pH in the kettle. You are suggesting (I guess) that if I brew with alkalinity free water, ignore the alkalinity of the malts such that mash pH is higher than it ought to be I can correct that mistake by adjusting kettle pH? I can't and you can't either and neither can any other brewer. This explains why brewing textbooks (perhaps you should read one) discuss means of acidifying mash and why breweries and brewers all over the world do it. If you can advance any sensible argument (and malt alkalinity is less than water alkalinity is not a sensible argument because it isn't true) that supports your thesis then you know something that is very significant to an industry (and hobby) that has not perceived this wisdom. You need to write this up and submit to ASBC right away (I've got Bamforth's e-mail here somewhere - let me know if you want it).

If you had you would realize the folly of your mash pH prediction calculators.

Mash pH carries over to the boil.

If mash pH carries over into the boil (which it does) and I use a mash prediction calculator to set mash pH and thus boil pH to an appropriate value why is the calculator folly?
If this tool improves people's beer, where is the folly? If it were folly why would a professional brewing journal be interested in an article explaining the theory behind it?

I sometimes think your posts are simply bait. If they are intended to provoke intelligent discussion of the principles involved that's fine but some of the guys (and gals) here are new to all this and someone may take you seriously.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Have you ever made a beer by neutralizing the waters alkalinity, mashing, adjusting boil pH and fermenting? If you had you would realize the folly of your mash pH prediction calculators.

Send Brulosophy your thoughts on this. Maybe Marshall would be interested in doing an xBmt on it.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

The more hops you add in the kettle/WP the higher your PH goes. If that falls out of spec at KO then your yeast might have to work that much harder or might not get even be able to get down to a low enough pH (especially for all those people that like to throw piles of hops in during fermentation). Then you add dry hops and now you’re crazy high and diacetyl uptake is inhibited and you end up with muddy buttery hoppy beer.

My experience brewing NEIPAs has been nothing at all like what you described.

 

[couchsending]

My experience brewing NEIPAs has been nothing at all like what you described.

View attachment 586734

Cool photos..

You probably add a bunch of wheat/oats and do tons of fermentation dry hopping and huge Whirlpool additions as well... the best producers of the style don’t do most of those things and are pretty meticulous about their pH into the fermenter being as close to 5.0 as possible...

You want less bitterness from your kettle additions... adjust the pH to 5.0 before you add said additions...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I propose a simple test. Brew three x 1 gallon Pilsner SMaSH Lagers at 10-12 Plato. They must be identical and identically processed sans for mash pH. Use distilled or good RO water, and add only CaCl2, and shoot for 50 ppm of Ca++. Process via the "no sparge" method so sparge can not influence the flavor outcome in any way. Mash one at pH 4.8 via phosphoric acid addition (since it is flavorless), mash another at pH 5.4 (also using phosphoric acid), and mash one at pH 6.0 via the addition of baking soda. Shoot for a relatively low 16 IBU's via the use of a single noble hop, added at 60 min. and 20 min. remaining in the boil, with 70% of IBU's from the 60 min. addition, and 30% from the 20 min. addition, so massive IBU's, and/or strong grapefruit flavors, dry hop flavors, etc... are not present to potentially mask and hide flavor differences within the malt itself. Drink each, and decide for yourself if mash pH control really matters.

Then (only if you did in fact notice any differences) repeat the experiment, only this time narrowing the three mash pH ranges to 5.2, 5.4, and 5.6. See if you can still notice the same differences for this "acceptable" range of mash pH's.

Flavor perception is unique to each individual. Only you can decide what your favorite mash pH target will be. Perhaps you will discover that you have no mash pH preference, and perhaps you will indeed have a preference. But asking others to decide this matter for you via a vote taken among those who have never tested a range of mash pH's to even know the real outcome themselves seems a bit strange.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

That's arguable. When addressing professional brewers on the subject I ask "How many of you check pH and have never had more than perhaps a third respond that they do. I can't attest as to whether this group contained the best brewers in the room. I have also had professional brewers tell me "You home brewers take this stuff much more seriously than we do."

In my further ponderance upon this bewilderment, malts purchased in bulk likely come with complete ISO9000 (type) certified analysis by lot, making it less likely that breweries will actually need to do such in house testing (including DI pH) themselves. In my 42 years of involvement in the chemical industry I noticed that wherein companies used to routinely lab test many inbound chemicals, once ISO9000 certification came along and began to be more fully trusted, such testing was for the most part eventually done away with. I presume the same has happened for major breweries. It's all about trust leading to cost savings.

 

[J-T]

Yeast is a powerful pH modifier, and it will work hard to bring the pH to its liking while actively in the process of turning wort into beer. Notice that for the Brulosophy exbeeriments with both high and low pH during the mash that the final beer pH readings between the mash pH normal beer and the mash pH deviant beer were much closer together.

THIS. There is a lot of concern over pH, when the yeast is just going to pull it to whatever level it wants anyway. Get your pH into the conversion range, maybe adjust for hop utilization if desired. Acidify in the kettle, or don't. The best use I've found for my pH meter recently is telling me when a kettle sour is ready to add a sacc strain.