Petit saison with Mandarina Bavaria hops

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Le saison petit a la francaise. Hon hon hon.

In all seriousness, I'm thinking of brewing this next. Would appreciate feedback.

Target OG: 1.040
Target FG: low
Target IBUs: ~23ish
Batch size: 5.5 gallons (all trub gets dumped into primary!)
Boil length: 60 minutes

5 lbs., 9 oz. Pilsen malt
1 lb., 2 oz. wheat malt
0 lbs., 12 oz. munich 10L
0 lbs., 4 oz. honey malt

Hops:
10g Mandarina Bavaria (8.5% AA) at first wort hop
10g Mandarina Bavaria (8.5% AA) at 30 minutes
~57g Mandarina Bavaria (2 oz. plus what's left of the ounce that gets split between bittering additions) in a hop stand at 160F for 30 minutes

Yeast: Belle saison slurry raised to a respectable pitch rate

Mash somewhere between 148-150.

You might think that there are too many rich malts in this, but my thinking is that (a) it's a small beer and so might benefit from flavor, and (b) belle will eat through all that and give a low FG no matter what.

 

[Gravity]

Looks yummy

Do a 90 min boil instead of 60 as its typical for brews with the majority of the grist being pilsen. It helps ward off DMS, which is a weird corn like flavor.

Skip the hop stand, I think they are pointless in a Saison. With that much Madarina, consider adding zest of a citrus fruit at flameout (tangerine, mandarine, oranges) it accomplishes the same thing and save the hops for dry hop or adding them during the boil.

Your malts are fine, if you're looking for a deeper more complex flavor, think about a decoction, which are also typical in Saisons

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Thanks. I'll take the advice about the 90 minute boil.

I don't think I'll do a decoction. I just don't want to deal with the hassle and I think infusion will get me close enough.

I'm also not sure about skipping the hop stand. I don't really want to dry hop, and my impression has been that hop stands impart a different flavor than dry hopping. When I think "dry hopped saison," I think of a hop bomb, whereas I think of hop stands as imparting a more delicate flavor, probably just because a lot of the aromatics evaporate. But I dunno, I'll take it under advisement.

 

[Gravity]

For sure, i'm not a fan of decoctions either, I can't be bothered.
I like the first wort hop additions; I'm not convinced hop stands do what you're describing any different than dry hopping.

You should brew that same recipe sometime and take those hop stand additions and either put them at flame out or dry hop, I bet you get similar results

Hope it turns out well

 

[carloslavin]

Regarding the 90 minute boil, might want to take a look at this exbeeriment from brulosophy.

I'd say if you have your numbers dialed to a 60min boil, it's not worth recalculating for 90.

Other than that, recipe looks great. I've been wanting to do a "table" saison for a while. Definitely let us know how it goes.

 

[Gravity]

Regarding the 90 minute boil, might want to take a look at this exbeeriment from brulosophy.

I'd say if you have your numbers dialed to a 60min boil, it's not worth recalculating for 90.

Other than that, recipe looks great. I've been wanting to do a "table" saison for a while. Definitely let us know how it goes.

They also have one on dry hopping vs hop stands

 

[Calder]

I don't know that a hop stand, or dry hop is really needed for a Saison. As said earlier, add some zest at 20 mins instead. The yeast should really be prominent and not compete with the hops. However, it will work fine as you have it.

My only issue with this is the Honey malt. Have you used it before? I find it too overpowering. 4 ozs in a high gravity beer is maybe OK, but you are doing a 1.040 beer; I would expect it to be the dominant flavor. Cut it in half, or even eliminate it.

 

[gometz]

Like the idea, I have done one or two petite saisons, always end up disappearing very quickly.

Not necessarily suggestions, but just some ideas:
- Maybe add a little oats to maintain the body a little better? You could use this instead of the wheat malt
- Mash higher, again to maintain body
- Add just a tiny bit of salt (NaCl, table salt) if you're okay with it. This can help accentuate flavors in a small beer. I am not talking Gose levels, just enough to barely notice
- A decoction could be a nice touch, but I think with the hops and at such a lower gravity it might not add much. But if you want to try to get some of that melanoidin flavor, use some melanoidin malt

Good Luck! I haven't brewed in almost 3 months thanks to school, trips, and moving. Getting itchy. As soon as we finish unpacking and I get a free weekend between semesters, I am going to finally get another batch going.

 

[FreddyBrewger]

I'll throw my 2 cents in. I agree with Calder. Drop the Honey Malt, I don't think it will do you any favors in this style with that OG. Mashing higher as gometz suggested is a good idea for a saison. 152-154 is what I'd do. I don't agree with subbing oats for the wheat malt however. A little salt? That's fine...small beer, flavors, as he said.

 

[FreddyBrewger]

Also, give us your intended fermentation schedule with temps. Saison yeasts love warmer temps, but with your smaller grain bill I'm not sure I'd push it higher right away.

 

[leesmith]

I recently brewed a small Saison...around 1.040...I don't have the recipe in front of me but will check when home

2.5 gallons
60% white wheat
40% pilsner

Mashed at 148 for an hour

30 IBUs of warrior at 60
1oz Mandarina Bavaria at flame out

Pitched healthy doses of OLY-500 and Wyeast Brett Brux

It's been about a month since brew day. I've had it at 74f the whole time.

Thinking of transferring to a purged keg (cause I want the yeast) with some light oak spheres for a while...leaving it around a month or two and then dry hopping just before packaging.

Any thoughts? How many spheres? If any. Should I age longer?

Tiredofbuyingbeer....have you brewed yours yet?
I'm really curious what Mandarina Bavaria is going to bring to the table.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

They also have one on dry hopping vs hop stands

Yeah, I've taken that to heart. I want the hop character to be more muted than with dry hopping, since this is a saison and not an IPA or anything. I don't want it to be super hop forward.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

My only issue with this is the Honey malt. Have you used it before? I find it too overpowering. 4 ozs in a high gravity beer is maybe OK, but you are doing a 1.040 beer; I would expect it to be the dominant flavor. Cut it in half, or even eliminate it.

I have used it before, and I kind of like it. I don't find it to be that prominent when I've used about 5 oz. in an IPA (OG in the 1050's). My concern is that Belle can be a monster fermenter, and higher gravity beers with it have finished tart for me. The hope for the honey malt would be to balance that.

I should say, in disclosure, that I took the base recipe from here, swapped the Vienna for Munich and the yeast for Belle, and scaled it down to the desired batch size and gravity.

Edit: Also, I should say, my intent in the post isn't to argue but to explain the rationale for including the honey malt. I might end up reducing or cutting it anyway. Not sure.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Also, give us your intended fermentation schedule with temps. Saison yeasts love warmer temps, but with your smaller grain bill I'm not sure I'd push it higher right away.

Since Belle seems to work at a wide range of temperatures, my plan was to pitch a little cool for this yeast but to not take terrible pains to do so. Probably 70 or so. Then ramp up over the course of a few days. I would go as high as 80 while fermentation was still active.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

I recently brewed a small Saison...around 1.040...I don't have the recipe in front of me but will check when home

2.5 gallons
60% white wheat
40% pilsner

Mashed at 148 for an hour

30 IBUs of warrior at 60
1oz Mandarina Bavaria at flame out

Pitched healthy doses of OLY-500 and Wyeast Brett Brux

It's been about a month since brew day. I've had it at 74f the whole time.

Thinking of transferring to a purged keg (cause I want the yeast) with some light oak spheres for a while...leaving it around a month or two and then dry hopping just before packaging.

Any thoughts? How many spheres? If any. Should I age longer?

Tiredofbuyingbeer....have you brewed yours yet?
I'm really curious what Mandarina Bavaria is going to bring to the table.

I don't think you'd need to batch age a low gravity saison. I plan to brew mine for a few weeks then bottle. It takes me a while to get through two cases of beer, so many will probably be well-aged by the time I drink them.

I plan to brew this beer the weekend after next. I pretty much have to brew this or something else that tolerates high temperatures, since I'll be out of town for a few weeks into the fermentation and the SWMBO won't change out frozen water bottles for me.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

As far as late citrus additions go, I wonder what it would be like to add syrup from an oleo saccharum either as a late boil addition or to secondary? Here's a link to how that works. I know Forest & Main brewery had a saison where they claimed to use that technique.

I probably won't be going this way for this particular beer, but I could see experimenting with it in the future. And who knows how I'll feel in a week or so when I finally brew it?

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Well, I finally brewed this today. Lots of indecision about the malt bill. I ended up zigging where I might've zagged. Here it is:

4 lbs., 14 oz. Pilsen malt
0 lbs., 10 oz. Munich 10L
1 lb., 0 oz. rye malt
1 lb., 0 oz. flaked rye

That's right, rye.

I ended up with an OG of 1.042 with a 5.5 gallon batch.

Hop schedule:
=========
13g Mandarina Bavaria (7.3% AA) at first wort
12g Mandarina Bavaria at 25 minutes
45.75g Mandarina Bavaria in a hop stand at 162F for 45 minutes (by the end, it had cooled to about 142F)
14g Mandarina Bavaria dry hop for 5 days (haven't done this yet)

90 minute boil. Chimay water profile from Bru'n water. Built up harvested Belle Saison slurry. Pitch at 72; let rise naturally and age for about 4 weeks, mostly because of a busy early August schedule.

Edit: Oh yeah, I mashed at 150F for 90 minutes and sparged at 172 for 30 minutes. BIAB, lots of squeezin'.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Here are some pictures. It's been in the bottle for only 8 days, and in the fridge for one.

It's smooth and crisp. The MB hops have a noble character, but I don't detect much orange. Obviously, it needs to carb more.

 

[Gravity]

Well, I finally brewed this today. Lots of indecision about the malt bill. I ended up zigging where I might've zagged. Here it is:

4 lbs., 14 oz. Pilsen malt
0 lbs., 10 oz. Munich 10L
1 lb., 0 oz. rye malt
1 lb., 0 oz. flaked rye

That's right, rye.

I ended up with an OG of 1.042 with a 5.5 gallon batch.

Hop schedule:
=========
13g Mandarina Bavaria (7.3% AA) at first wort
12g Mandarina Bavaria at 25 minutes
45.75g Mandarina Bavaria in a hop stand at 162F for 45 minutes (by the end, it had cooled to about 142F)
14g Mandarina Bavaria dry hop for 5 days (haven't done this yet)

90 minute boil. Chimay water profile from Bru'n water. Built up harvested Belle Saison slurry. Pitch at 72; let rise naturally and age for about 4 weeks, mostly because of a busy early August schedule.

Edit: Oh yeah, I mashed at 150F for 90 minutes and sparged at 172 for 30 minutes. BIAB, lots of squeezin'.

Sounds and looks good

I just did a Rye Saison and the rye was about 25% of the grist

I'll keg it next week

 

[jekeane]

Mandarin are interesting I have used a pound of them on a few different beers. I get a Green Tea note from them mostly along with some typical noble notes. I have found that 0 minute additions as well as the whirlpool seem to bring out the subdued citrus while 20-5 minutes are the Tea and Noble notes.

Brewing a Single tomorrow with all Mandarina

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Mandarin are interesting I have used a pound of them on a few different beers. I get a Green Tea note from them mostly along with some typical noble notes. I have found that 0 minute additions as well as the whirlpool seem to bring out the subdued citrus while 20-5 minutes are the Tea and Noble notes.

Brewing a Single tomorrow with all Mandarina

Yeah, I do get a bit of green tea. I wasn't sure if that was a product of it's not being fully carbed yet. Good descriptor.

Good luck on your brew day.

 

[leesmith]

This is my version using a small amount of Mandarina Bavaria. The original intent was to dry hop it with another 2 oz....but as it aged I just didn't think it needed it. While I do get some citrus type of flavors and aromas that my be from the yeasts...I don't perceive any tea like flavors. Also, the beer didn't come out so "petit" at 7.8% but I can say it's a drinker and the alcohol does not show in any unpleasant way.



Brew day 6/17/17:



2.5 Gallons

O.G. 1.040

F.G. .980



MASH:

60% (3lbs. 3.8oz.) White Wheat

40% (2 lbs. 2.5oz.) Pilsner

Mash at 148 F for 60 min



BOIL:

.30 oz. of Warrior @60 min for 30 IBUs



FLAMEOUT:

1.00 oz. of Mandarina Bavaria



FERMENTATION:

800ml starter of Wyeast 3112 Brett Brux

800ml starter of OYL-500



SECONDARY:

7/16/17 Kegged on 3 light American oak spheres



CONDITIONING:

8/8/17 Kegged on 3oz. sugar



SERVING:

8/27/17



The Brett character shows with a dusty, leathery and fruity combination. The Saison yeast contributes pepper and fruit. The oak is subtle and a vanilla like note comes through in the background. It's a solid beer and won't last long though. The mouth feel is good at 3.0 volumes of carbonation...the pepper and bitterness linger on the tongue and make this beer a drinker.



My criticisms would be I could have left it conditioning longer or a bit of sour beer blended in would get it tasting more to my preferences.



The picture below is of a sample taken after transferring to Secondary.

 

[Smellyglove]

To get more of the "mandarin" flavor the hops need longer contact time post boil/during fermentation/post fermentation at lower temperatures. Same with Huell Melon.