Persistent Carbonation Issues

[jcannon]

I’ve been brewing for a while without any issues, but about a year ago I began having some carbonation problems that have been maddeningly persistent. Feel free to throw solutions at me or direct me to any helpful threads I might have missed.

When I open beers I get an occasional gusher or a slowly rising foam. Sometimes it doesn’t even materialize until after the first sip, and then bubbles start shooting up from the sediment at the bottom of the bottle. These bubbles continue to rise from the bottom for up to five minutes. It’s almost like a champagne foam. I have no idea what’s causing this.

Just to eliminate a couple obvious causes:

- I use a priming sugar calculator and weigh out my sugar on a digital scale. Also, I’m fairly conservative about the amount I add (especially now).
- I know contamination is often the culprit, but I’ve always been careful about that and didn’t have any carbonation problems for years. Also, once this started happening, I did an insane bleach/oxyclean/Starsan cleaning of all bottles and equipment. Still had gushers on my next batch.
- I replaced my lines, bottling spigot, bottle filler, and fermentation buckets. The last batch was better, but there were still a significant number of overcarbonated beers.
- I twist the tube around the bottom of my bottling bucket to get a good swirl before I pour in the sugar water. I know some people recommend stirring, but the swirl worked fine for dozens of batches.
- I let the beer sit on the yeast cake for a while, so this isn’t a case of bottling before I hit my FG.

A few random ideas on possible causes/changes in my process...

- All grain brewing: This became a much more persistent problem once I fully switched to all grain brewing. Still, I had done a significant number of successful all grain batches before this started happening.
- Bottle residue: I do have some bottles that have been in rotation for a while. I thought my insane cleaning regiment would have purged any residue, but I could be wrong.
- Water: this started happening right after I moved to a new city. I feel like blaming the water is a completely irrational explanation, particularly since I do full boils, but I’m out of ideas and that’s one of the few things that changed.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer.

 

[Brulosopher]

I highly doubt it's your water or the fact you're now brewing all grain. In my bottling days, I never had a single gusher, all I did was add the hot priming sugar solution to the empty bottling bucket then rack the finished beer on that, giving the bucket a few gentle swirls along the way. Gently stirring might be another way to eliminate the "sweet spot" hypothesis. If this doesn't work, I'd bet it's your bottles-- if you're not spraying them out with hot water immediately after use, that's the likely culprit. Good luck!

 

[CliffMongoloid]

I had some carb issues a while back- i determined it was from the actual bottles lending some wild yeast and slight infections. and as said above i Now i rinse my beer bottle out as soon as i pour it- also i wash them in the dishwasher before i sanitze and that seems to help alot- start with your bottles thats my advice

 

[soccerdad]

I had some gushers in two back to back batches and realized that I had not (in a while) dismantled the bottling bucket and cleaned all in and around the spigot. Did that and the issue is gone. I now do that every 2 or three batches but sanitize bucket and spigot every time. That may not be your issue as you say that you swapped out the spigot. And yes - clean the bottles thrice ... good rinse when emptied of brew, oxy soak and inspection on bottling day or day before, starsan dip on bottling day.

 

[dobes]

not sure if this could be your problem but i had an issue with my water. The water (tap) i use for cleaning when i rinse it off would leave a ton of mineral deposits on all my equipment. Not sure if this could harbor bacteria in it or not, but to relieve the issue after i rinse everything off i would re-rinse it off with some star-san made with DI water. I still sanitize again before i use it but at least there are no water spots on it.

 

[Beernik]

I recommend looking at the bottles too. If was anything else (except incomplete mixing of sugar), it would be in every bottle.

Sometimes no matter how hard you scrub it with a brush or how long you let it soak, you can't get a fleck of crud off. When I get a foamer/gusher or can't rinse the bottle clean, I toss it.

Also, clean out your bottling wand. The tip comes off (make sure you don't lose the spring).

 

[balrog]

See this thread. Much talk of same issues, no firm resolutions, and I suffer the same thing, more prevalent once warmer weather set in so I wonder about floating nasties during bottling.

I rinse every bottle after a pour; I PBW and bottle brush every bottle, then store upside down in boxes, StarSan every bottle just prior to filling, and I am unable to have any beer go longer than 6-8 weeks without foaming. I wash and sanitize FV and bottling bucket before AND after every session, I am replacing my bottling spigot and got some silicone tubing to replace the vinyl I use for siphon and bottling, so I can boil the snot out of it to sanitize, and I'm considering stainless racking cane and bottling wand.

The worst foaming I've ever seen was a friend's homebrew he dry hopped, but there were bits of hop in every bottle which gave CO2 nucleation points. Those things were terrible, but I could see cause/effect.

 

[bu_gee]

The symptoms you describe make me think nucleation sites. You can test that by pouring diet Coke into your bottle. If it gushes, you have nucleation sites.

I have been meaning to ask: has anybody ever tried their oven's self-cleaning cycle on troublesome bottles? Somehow it feels like it would be dangerous, but I'm not sure I know what to expect.

 

[Beernik]

I don't know that you need to go as far as the self cleaning temperature. Take it up to 200 and you'll kill off anything in the bottle. But glass retains heat for a really long time, so be careful taking them out.

I've thought about using the oven on the bottles for the Barleywine I have coming up. I want to be able to store them for a long time.

 

[balrog]

I don't know that you need to go as far as the self cleaning temperature. Take it up to 200 and you'll kill off anything in the bottle. But glass retains heat for a really long time, so be careful taking them out.

I've thought about using the oven on the bottles for the Barleywine I have coming up. I want to be able to store them for a long time.

350 for 1 hr, 200 for 12 hrs.

That's what I've read.

Convincing the wife I'm not crazy baking several cases of 12, 16, 22oz bottles for hours on end? Priceless.

 

[Beernik]

I wonder why Palmer recommends such a high temperature for so long when food canning recommends 225F for 20 minutes for sterilization.

 

[balrog]

Palmer's time/temps (and the ones I quoted) are to STERILIZE rather than sanitize, and oven is dry heat which is less effective than steam.

I guess I did not realize oven times were for sterilize. For instance, we brewers are told many times that boiling for 10-15m will sanitize sufficiently for most purposes.

 

[Beernik]

I edited my previous post but you beat me to it.

He has to be talking about a medical grade autoclaving equivalent of time and temperature in an oven.

That's pretty hardcore and I'm doubting is necessary. We worry about bacteria, wild yeast, and mold. I don't think we are worried about viruses, etc.

 

[balrog]

I edited my previous post but you beat me to it.

He has to be talking about a medical grade autoclaving equivalent of time and temperature in an oven.

That's pretty hardcore and I'm doubting is necessary. We worry about bacteria, wild yeast, and mold. I don't think we are worried about viruses, etc.

I can see the CNN/FoxNews headlines now: "Is *YOUR* Beer Infected with EBOLA?!!?! Well IT **COULD** be if you haven't autoclaved your house!"

 

[Beernik]

I can see the CNN/FoxNews headlines now: "Is *YOUR* Beer Infected with EBOLA?!!?! Well IT **COULD** be if you haven't autoclaved your house!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I read that with Wolf Blitzer in my head. That is the funniest thing I have read today!

 

[jcannon]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Definitely wasn't expecting that many in a single day.

It seems like there's a loose consensus that it has to do with bottles and I think that might be the best explanation. I recently had a beer with an FG of 1.006, only an ounce of hops in the recipe and relatively little priming sugar. Not sure where the extra fermentables would be for that, but I got a fair amount of gushers. I wonder if it's Oxiclean residue or mineral deposits from the water here.

Tonight I decided to do an oxi bath for some bottles followed by a soaking in vinegar water to try to get rid of any residue. Then tomorrow when I bottle I'll probably do a longer Starsan bath than usual to purge the bottles of any remaining oxy/vingear residue.

Anyone have any strong opinions on vinegar as a cleaner? I know some people are wary of it.

 

[bu_gee]

I don't know that you need to go as far as the self cleaning temperature. Take it up to 200 and you'll kill off anything in the bottle. But glass retains heat for a really long time, so be careful taking them out.

I've thought about using the oven on the bottles for the Barleywine I have coming up. I want to be able to store them for a long time.

200°F doesn't, for example, kill C. Botulinum spores. Mind you, not a lot does.

Also I'm talking about using the self-clean cycle to burn off organic deposits in the bottle to get rid of nucleation sites and not necessarily for killing anything.

 

[Beernik]

True, but most beers have a pH below 4.5 and that's enough to kill off botulism bacteria.

Self cleaning ovens temperatures get upwards of 800F. I think the bottles would crack or shatter under the thermal stress.

 

[bu_gee]

True, but most beers have a pH below 4.5 and that's enough to kill off botulism bacteria.

Self cleaning ovens temperatures get upwards of 800F. I think the bottles would crack or shatter under the thermal stress.

I believe 4.2 is a the magic number they use and then, it only prevents growth and doesn't kill off the spore.

Everybody always talks about thermally stressing glass, but that happens under conditions of steep temperature gradients. Glass starts its life in the thousands of degrees, so there has gotta be a way to heat it safely.

Thermal shock at 200°F can cause the glass to break so since it is allegedly a safe temperature to cook your bottles, you have to assume it is a matter of shock and not because of an absolute temperature.

If you could ease the bottles up to those temperatures the oven will usually do a good job of easing them back down.

I guess once my bottles get nucleation issues, I'll give it a try myself.

 

[jcannon]

I used to bake bottles when I first started brewing. I think I started at 170 and slowly worked my way up to 350 or 400 over the course of an hour or two and then slowly back down. The bottles always do fine, but it does take a forever.

I worried that that process might weaken them or cause hairline cracks, but I never had any problems before I switched to Starsan. Aside from the fact I had to hang out at my house heating bottles for six hours and my kitchen would get up to about 90 degrees.