PBW substitute

[redrocker652002]

Greetings to all,

I seem to remember somebody posting a substitute to PBW that was substantially cheaper and was readily available on Amazon. I have searched the threads and cannot find it. Can someone help me out with this? If not, no worries, I am getting to the end of my Alkaline Brewery cleaner and wanted to see if there is anything a bit less expensive.

As a side note, I noticed Iodophore (sp?) is much cheaper and seems to be a good substitute for StarSan. I am wondering if this could be used as a cleaner as well? The LHBS has what looks to be a gallon jug of it for about 28.00. I am thinking of trying it, but looking for some real world experience with it.

As usual, any feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

Iodophor is not a cleaner, but it is an effective sanitizer. It will tend to discolor plastic fermenters though.

As far as the PBW alternative, I use Oxyclean Free when I’m out of PBW.

 

[redrocker652002]

Iodophor is not a cleaner, but it is an effective sanitizer. It will tend to discolor plastic fermenters though.

As far as the PBW alternative, I use Oxyclean Free when I’m out of PBW.

I tried Oxyclean and it foamed up really bad in my DIY bucket and keg washer, so I ended up not using it. I might give it another go because it is much cheaper the ABW or PBW.

So, Iodophor is like Starsan? Again, it is much cheaper. As long as the staining does not affect the end product I don't much care what my buckets look like. And if I can use it to sterilize my kegs, even better. Do you know if it has a shelf life undiluted? I got a half bottle from a user here who was liquidating and it is sitting on my shelf in my shed for probably a few years and was on his shelf for at least that long too. If it is still good, I might switch to that instead of Starsan as it seems to be cheaper as well. Gotta save a few pennies where I can, right?

 

[odie]

oxyclean or generic versions work well

 

[Bramling Cross]

I never buy PBW, even on sale it's too expensive. Really, all of Five Star's stuff is too expensive and there are plenty of alternatives.

Generic oxyclean works great, just make certain that it is unscented. I'm currently using the stuff pictured below. I found it on Amazon and it was less than twenty bucks for 8lbs. It's now more than double that. I won't be buying it again at its current price, that's laughable. The same thing happened with the detergent that I used prior to this stuff, it's cheap when it first hits the market.

The great thing about detergents and sanitizers is that they don't really go bad when stored properly. If you see a good deal, just get it. You'll use it eventually.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

OxiClean + TSP/90 = PBWish. About a 75/25 mix will do well. I generally do a 3 lb tub of Oxi and a 1 lb box of TSP to make it easy. Not sure if that'll solve your foaming issue, but it's a helluva lot cheaper.

StarSan smells like a wet fart and foams up too much for me. I go with Lysol no-rinse sanitizer now. ~$13 $20 a gallon and works just as well IMO.

 

[DuncB]

I think this thread has all the information you need.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/homemade-pbw-recipe.467655/

I use the sodium percarbonate, sodium metasilicate and EDTA mix and it's been very good.

 

[Bramling Cross]

StarSan smells like a wet fart and foams up too much for me. I go with Lysol no-rinse sanitizer now. ~$13 a gallon and works just as well IMO.

That's really interesting and a great price. I gather it's an acid sanitizer like StarSan? I'm tempted, but I'm a bit of an Iodophor fan boy.

 

[Kornssj]

This is an interesting topic and sometimes i use dish soap to get the gunk off initially and then come back later and use PBW a couple days before brew day.

Anybody do this or have had issues and advise not to do this?

 

[Bramling Cross]

This is an interesting topic and sometimes i use dish soap to get the gunk off initially and then come back later and use PBW a couple days before brew day.

Anybody do this or have had issues and advise not to do this?

As a rule, you generally want to keep dish soap out of your brewery and your beer drinking glassware. I brew in my kitchen, so I have a box that allows me to strictly segregate my brewing and beer glassware scrub pads and brushes from my routine kitchen washing implements.

 

[redrocker652002]

I like the idea of the Lysol. Cheaper than Starsan and if it works the same that is a win for sure.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

Somewhere, there’s a recipe for “poor man’s pbw”. I made it once, but sourcing it all made it about as expensive as 5Star’s product.

 

[day_trippr]

And @DuncB linked that very thread just a few posts back...

 

[FloppyKnockers]

That's really interesting and a great price. I gather it's an acid sanitizer like StarSan? I'm tempted, but I'm a bit of an Iodophor fan boy.

I think it's really similar. Looks and smells the same, just not nearly as aggressive on the smell.

 

[Skunkape71]

OxiClean + TSP/90 = PBWish. About a 75/25 mix will do well. I generally do a 3 lb tub of Oxi and a 1 lb box of TSP to make it easy. Not sure if that'll solve your foaming issue, but it's a helluva lot cheaper.

StarSan smells like a wet fart and foams up too much for me. I go with Lysol no-rinse sanitizer now. ~$13 a gallon and works just as well IMO.

Curious where you are finding the lysol for 13ish a gallon? Everywhere I've searched is 20 bucks or more a gallon. I'd be interested in giving it a shot!

 

[Beekeeper]

I never buy PBW, even on sale it's too expensive. Really, all of Five Star's stuff is too expensive and there are plenty of alternatives.

I'm currently using the stuff pictured below. I found it on Amazon and it was less than twenty bucks for 8lbs. It's now more than double that. I won't be buying it again at its current price, that's laughable. The same thing happened with the detergent that I used prior to this stuff, it's cheap when it first hits the market.

You'll save by purchasing directly from that brand/manufacturer Actxxx Exxxment than through 'Zon. Free shipping on the 8# container.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Someone mentioned using dairy industry chemicals in a thread a few days ago. I tried to follow-up with them, but got no reply. That stuff is super cheap. That industry uses stainless steel, deals with "milk" stone, uses acid to sanitize/clean, etc., just don't know enough about it.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Curious where you are finding the lysol for 13ish a gallon? Everywhere I've searched is 20 bucks or more a gallon. I'd be interested in giving it a shot!

Oh, damn! I guess the price went up since the last time I got some. I got 4 gallons at a restaurant supply store probably 2015ish. Maybe a testament to how long it lasts.

You're right though. $18 - $20 is the best I can find today. Still worth it - I use a jigger for every bucket, fermenter, or keg that I sanitize.

 

[Kornssj]

As a rule, you generally want to keep dish soap out of your brewery and your beer drinking glassware. I brew in my kitchen, so I have a box that allows me to strictly segregate my brewing and beer glassware scrub pads and brushes from my routine kitchen washing implements.

Right on I didn't realize i should also keep my glassware free of it.

If soap leaves residue, why do we use so much of it on our dishes??

 

[redrocker652002]

Lysol is about 20 bucks at Staples and I have one close by. I am going to look into mixing the Oxyclean with the TSP/90 and see what comes of it. I am thinking of trying just Oxyclean again in my bucket washer and see how bad the foaming is. My pump has about crapped the bed, so I may end up having to wash everything by hand again anyway. This is a great thread, thanks to all who added to it.

 

[mac_1103]

If soap leaves residue, why do we use so much of it on our dishes??

Maybe because it won't hurt you and dirty dishes might?

Anyway, dish soap followed by rinsing followed by PBW followed by more rinsing probably gets rid of the residue.

 

[DuncB]

A gap in my knowledge but from my search Lysol is a brand?

What product would you be considering using from them in your brew regime? What is in the product?
Thanks.

 

[redrocker652002]

A gap in my knowledge but from my search Lysol is a brand?

What product would you be considering using from them in your brew regime? What is in the product?
Thanks.

They make a product called a no rinse sanitizer

https://www.staples.com/lysol-profe...MIrOmd5KrqjQMVBB6tBh05Fj2vEAQYAiABEgI8gvD_BwE

 

[DuncB]

Can you get this in USA?

A starsan alternative at a good price.

https://kegland.com.au/products/stellarsan-sanitiser-500ml-phosphoric-based-similar-to-starsan

 

[UdonPete]

Mix it yourself - very cheap and easy - mix with 20 Liters/5 Gals water
75g Sodium percarbonate
35g Sodium metasilicate
5g EDTA

 

[DuncB]

I use a ratio of 70 : 25 : 5 and use 11g per litre

 

[UdonPete]

I use a ratio of 70 : 25 : 5 and use 11g per litre

You can cut down that 11g/L - cleans well with my amounts plus 45C water - I recirc for about half hour

 

[DuncB]

Based on your figures I could halve the quantity.
I don't tend to make up 5 gallons but use it with CIP for the heavy stuff and then after use a long soak of other stuff like bottles.

 

[IslandLizard]

So, Iodophor is like Starsan?

No, they're nothing alike. They sanitize in different ways.

One of the main differences is that a Iodophor working solution is only active for about 12 hours, max. On the other hand, a Starsan working solution can remain active for as long as several weeks, months even, depending on how it's being used and/or stored.

I am wondering if this could be used as a cleaner as well?

No, neither Iodophor nor Starsan is a cleaner. They are sanitizers that will only sanitize equipment that's already clean. IOW, you can't sanitize dirt.

PBW, Oxiclean (or one of it's off-brands), or Washing soda are (alkaline) cleaners. There are others.
One of the homemade PBW varieties consists of about 60% Oxiclean and 40% TSP/90. You could add a tiny bit of EDTA too, if you think that's important.

 

[mac_1103]

No, they're nothing alike. They sanitize in different ways.

And FWIW, the Lysol no-rinse sanitizer is also a different active ingredient (quaternary ammonium) that sanitizes in a different way.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

And FWIW, the Lysol no-rinse sanitizer is also a different active ingredient (quaternary ammonium) that sanitizes in a different way.

Follow-up question. What is Star-San's active ingredient and how does it differ?

Honest question... really want to know.

 

[Wayne1]

From a previous post by @beerclean

"Quat(Quaternary Ammonium) is a great all purpose sanitizer, the only problem is its terrible on beer glasses. Quat will leave a coating behind or a film that prevents the glass from having a proper lacing effect. Steramine is a quat based product.

This will also kill the beer head quite fast and make it dissipate. I would recommend the Iodophor for sanitizing. I personally use B-T-F Iodophor, but Starsan is also a good product.

Products similar to steramine if you read are "general" or "all purpose sanitizers". Due to the fact that they are cheap people tend to use them without understanding the issues it may cause on the beer collar."

From https://brewerycleaners.com/brewery-cleaning-products/#sanitizers:

"This quaternary ammonium based sanitizer can be used in the brewery for area sanitization. Walls, tank exteriors, floors, and drains are easily sanitized with this quat; however, be careful not to use this product on beer contact surfaces, including interiors of storage tanks, tap lines, and glasses. The residual presence of sanitizer, can have negative effects on your brew."

In general it is safe practice NOT to use Quat on surfaces that touch beer.

Star-San is what is known as an Acid Anionic sanitizer. Just about any chemical company offers a product either similar or exactly the same as Star San.

They are usually around 50% of 75% phosphoric acid and 15% dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid.

The way it works is the phosphoric acid weakens the cell walls enough that the dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid can then penetrate the cell and kill it off.

At one point,early in my brewing career, I did work for Five Star as director of brewery services.

At the brewpub I work for now, we are using a built caustic and a nitric/phosphoric acid blend for soil removal in the brewhouse and either a non-foaming acid anionic or peracetic acid for sanitizing

 

[FloppyKnockers]

You had me at dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid.

Lots of good info. Thank you for that. I don't use Lysol for sanitizing barware - that's just weird. I don't really sanitize taps or lines either. Just clean them with BLC. I do sanitize fermenters and kegs with it though and haven't noticed any head-killing problems.

I think I need to experiment with this. Either sanitize kegs with one of each sanitizer and compare. Or easier yet, wet the inside of a glass with one of each solution and pour a beer.

Once again I will take one for the team and drink beer for science!

 

[mac_1103]

The way it works is the phosphoric acid weakens the cell walls enough that the dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid can then penetrate the cell and kill it off.

I think it may be the other way around. Dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid is a surfactant. Surfactants disrupt lipid membranes. Then the acid can get inside.

 

[Wayne1]

That could very well be. It is roughly 25 years since I was at Five Star and my memory is not the best. I do remember that one disrupts the membrane and the other kills it off.

 

[mac_1103]

It is roughly 25 years since I was at Five Star and my memory is not the best.

My memory for 25 years ago is often better than my memory for 25 minutes ago.

 

[redrocker652002]

So, to dumb it down to my level, Starsan or Iodophor is the prefered sanitizer instead of the Lysol? I don't mind either way as I want to make sure my equipment is clean and sanitized right.

 

[whoaru99]

...

 

[whoaru99]

So, to dumb it down to my level, Starsan or Iodophor is the prefered sanitizer instead of the Lysol? I don't mind either way as I want to make sure my equipment is clean and sanitized right.

Preferred is a subjective thing. I prefer StarSan because that's what I've used and developed confidence in.

For the amount/frequency I brew, there isn't a strongly compelling reason for me to change to something else.

 

[DuncB]

I'm not sure if the QATS are no rinse sanitisers, starsan is a no rinse sanitiser which is in it's favour.