PBW and Starsan side effects.

[Jako]

So last night i cleaned 4 kegs a fermenter and my Kettle. I woke up with a crazy dry nose that started to bleed and my hands like normal felt like sand paper... i could feel the burn as i transferred the PBW and Starsan to different vessels.

could the steam from the solutions be slowly killing me from the inside out?

what safety precautions do you all take? or is everyone like me shoulder deep in 120F of PBW and Starsan?

 

[madscientist451]

One of my precautions is I don't use steam. Hot water with PBW, maybe, but it doesn't have to be all that hot to be effective, there's no reason for star-san to be hot. I've been using both products for years without any problems. If I have a really nasty carboy, or a keg I forgot about, I clean it the best I can with hot tap water and a brush then fill it with room temperature PBW solution and let it sit, usually overnight. The crud is usually dissolved by the next day and I pour the PBW off to a bucket and use it again a few times.

 

[day_trippr]

Jeeze, I've never gotten anything like that from either PBW or Star San. The latter I only ever use at room temperature (I maintain a ~5.5 gallon reservoir for purging kegs and random sanitation), the former I use somewhere between ~130°F (my hottest tap water when cleaning kegs) and ~150°F (when I recirculate through my 3v2p single tier herms rig).

But I also don't do "shoulder deep" with either...

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

The dry nose is almost definitely unrelated. Maybe a medication side effect? Humidity change? Are you staying hydrated?

 

[Qhrumphf]

If enough PBW dust gets airborne it'll make me sneeze a bit. But that's dust in general and no lasting effects.

 

[Zooksta]

I use hot water for pbw and cool water for star san. Not sure about your dry nose, but I make sure to wear rubber gloves with pbw or my hands get super dried out.

 

[Jako]

The dry nose is almost definitely unrelated. Maybe a medication side effect? Humidity change? Are you staying hydrated?

always hydrated, this is the second time i had this happen to me each time after a big cleaning.

i plan on keeping the heat down next time. hopefully i can avoid this next time. the dry Utah air doesn't help much i am sure.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I stand corrected. This MSDS lists nosebleeds.
https://www.spectrumchemical.com/MSDS/S1601_AGHS.pdf

Reducing the temperature will reduce the rate of H2O2 effusion, which should help.
Use in a well-ventilated area.

 

[Jako]

I stand corrected. This MSDS lists nosebleeds.
https://www.spectrumchemical.com/MSDS/S1601_AGHS.pdf

Reducing the temperature will reduce the rate of H2O2 effusion, which should help.
Use in a well-ventilated area.

never even crossed my mind to check MSDS sheets on the chemical to begin with, awesome find thank you!

 

[Jako]

i will add this to my list of dangers of home brewing. 1# rule is never purge a bottle of beer with 30 PSI of CO2 without pulling out the filler neck of the beer gun. i thought i died.

 

[madscientist451]

I stand corrected. This MSDS lists nosebleeds.
https://www.spectrumchemical.com/MSDS/S1601_AGHS.pdf

Reducing the temperature will reduce the rate of H2O2 effusion, which should help.

From the Five Star Chemicals website: PBW is "effective at all temperatures", but then in the directions it says to heat to 130-180F for circulation cleaning. It also says its "non-hazardous".
https://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWTech.pdf

The Star-San tech sheet doesn't say anything about temperature, but it does say that after cleaning with a "compatible cleaner" that the items should be rinsed with water before sanitizing.
It does contain this warning:
DO NOT MIX STAR SAN WITH CHLORINATED CLEANERS AS CHLORINE GAS WILL RESULT.
https://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech-HB2.pdf

To the OP: Did you rinse with water after using the PBW solution?
Any chance any chlorinated cleaners came in contact with the Star San?

 

[ehk089]

^oh snap, I always go directly from pbw to starsan bucket without rinsing....never had a problem

 

[RPh_Guy]

From the Five Star Chemicals website: PBW is "effective at all temperatures", but then in the directions it says to heat to 130-180F for circulation cleaning. It also says its "non-hazardous".

Most of us haven't had a problem from PBW because it's relatively safe and this is probably an extreme case.
I linked to a MSDS, which is the first place you should look for chemical exposure info. There are potential toxic effects; I didn't make this up.

The percarbonate ingredient in PBW evolves hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), which can be hazardous (and it's why I looked at the MSDS for sodium percarbonate). Higher heat causes the evolution of the H2O2 much more quickly, resulting in a higher potential for acute toxicity.
When circulation cleaning (vs soaking) you want the H2O2 released more quickly because you're probably cleaning for a shorter duration. I use lower temperature water when soaking my gear, and never as hot as they suggest even when circulating because I don't like to risk burns when it's totally unnecessary.

The Star-San tech sheet doesn't say anything about temperature, but it does say that after cleaning with a "compatible cleaner" that the items should be rinsed with water before sanitizing.
It does contain this warning:
DO NOT MIX STAR SAN WITH CHLORINATED CLEANERS AS CHLORINE GAS WILL RESULT.
https://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech-HB2.pdf

To the OP: Did you rinse with water after using the PBW solution?
Any chance any chlorinated cleaners came in contact with the Star San?

^oh snap, I always go directly from pbw to starsan bucket without rinsing....never had a problem

"Chlorinated cleaner" is code for bleach (sodium hypochlorite).
Reducing the pH of bleach results in chlorine gas formation.
PBW does not have chlorine and therefore poses no risk when mixed with Star San. ... Although you shouldn't mix them because the higher pH of the PBW inactivates the Star San.

 

[kh54s10]

I guess it is the steam for the nasal problem. The dry hands? Are you mixing the solutions in the proper ratio?

I use Oxiclean generics for cleaning, hot tap water is the warmest I have ever used it. Cleaning and rinsing well before using Starsan.

Some people are more susceptible to irritation. I had a friend who was asthmatic and anything harsh would bother him. Another friend had dry skin where his fingertips would crack and split just from low humidity in winter.

 

[augiedoggy]

I will say I do get dry cracked skin on my hands when using a lot of pbw at the brewpub, I try to wear gloves but as you know things dont always work the way we plan. never had any other effects from it honestly though.
we also use a lot of sani clean instead of starsan due to foaming and no ill effects from that so far.

 

[Jag75]

Does anyone know why it says on a PBW jug not to use on tephlon tape ?

 

[Jako]

From the Five Star Chemicals website: PBW is "effective at all temperatures", but then in the directions it says to heat to 130-180F for circulation cleaning. It also says its "non-hazardous".
https://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWTech.pdf

The Star-San tech sheet doesn't say anything about temperature, but it does say that after cleaning with a "compatible cleaner" that the items should be rinsed with water before sanitizing.
It does contain this warning:
DO NOT MIX STAR SAN WITH CHLORINATED CLEANERS AS CHLORINE GAS WILL RESULT.
https://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech-HB2.pdf

To the OP: Did you rinse with water after using the PBW solution?
Any chance any chlorinated cleaners came in contact with the Star San?

Normally i will get a gallon or two of hot hot water then dump in my PBW no more then 5oz for 6 gallons. let it sit for an hour then transfer to the next vessel. i will rinse really well with equally hot water then do the same process for Starsan but i don't rinse out the foam from the Starsan. cap the keg and get it some CO2 for storage.

 

[AkTom]

The only side effects I’ve had are, clean and sanitized equipment.
Cheers

 

[day_trippr]

Does anyone know why it says on a PBW jug not to use on tephlon tape ?

I don't specifically know why the Teflon thing is there, but I will say recirculating hot PBW thins the Teflon thrust washers in my two 815PL mag pumps. More than once I've had to replace a thrust washer after rinsing out the cleaner and hearing the rotor starting to wobble (which is pretty much the only warning you'll get).

Fortunately the washers are cheap enough when bought in quantity, as I don't know of a more effective cleaning regimen...

Cheers!

 

[cswant88]

I’ve never experienced nosebleeds or respiratory issues with either product, but prolonged exposure (like over the course of a bottling session) to star San does dry my skin, nothing a little lotion can’t remedy.

It could be you’re just more sensitive to them. You can get dual cartridge respirator at harbor freight for $17. Some long cuff cleaning gloves wouldn’t be a bad idea either.

 

[Soulshine2]

So last night i cleaned 4 kegs a fermenter and my Kettle. I woke up with a crazy dry nose that started to bleed and my hands like normal felt like sand paper... i could feel the burn as i transferred the PBW and Starsan to different vessels.

could the steam from the solutions be slowly killing me from the inside out?

what safety precautions do you all take? or is everyone like me shoulder deep in 120F of PBW and Starsan?

why are you heating either of those??
If Im not mistaken (because I dont use it) PBW is made of basically oxiclean and TSP. TSP can be very rough on skin which is why you should handle it in concentrate with chemical gloves on. Starsan is a phosphoric acid compound used for sanitizing and needs only to be mixed in proper proportion,wet contact, no heat needed.
I use just Oxiclean with warm water and a soft bristle brush (like the small shoebrush style with handle or the tiny bottle brush types to clean port valves.) to clean any visible "particles" like hop residue from my equipment and I try to do it while its still the same day as brewing , if not, its early as I can the following day. Dont allow your crustied up equipment to dry . Starsan goes on right before use. It works wet so no use wasting it if youre just going to put your equipment away . Not saying you cant but once it dries, it is no longer effective.

 

[balrog]

after cleaning lots of bottles my hands are much drier but that is also true after I wash lots of dishes or the car, and is regardless of detergent/pbw/oxy/soap

after a brew day and lots of starsan use my hands are also drier, but it's just noticeable and not deleterious.

 

[Jako]

why are you heating either of those??
If Im not mistaken (because I dont use it) PBW is made of basically oxiclean and TSP. TSP can be very rough on skin which is why you should handle it in concentrate with chemical gloves on. Starsan is a phosphoric acid compound used for sanitizing and needs only to be mixed in proper proportion,wet contact, no heat needed.
I use just Oxiclean with warm water and a soft bristle brush (like the small shoebrush style with handle or the tiny bottle brush types to clean port valves.) to clean any visible "particles" like hop residue from my equipment and I try to do it while its still the same day as brewing , if not, its early as I can the following day. Dont allow your crustied up equipment to dry . Starsan goes on right before use. It works wet so no use wasting it if youre just going to put your equipment away . Not saying you cant but once it dries, it is no longer effective.

i don't heat it but use hot tap water.

 

[day_trippr]

why are you heating either of those??[...]

From Five Star: "CIRCULATION CLEANING: Use 1 to 3 ounces per gallon depending on soil load. Heat to 130° to 180° F for 30 minutes."

That's why...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't specifically know why the Teflon thing is there, but I will say recirculating hot PBW thins the Teflon thrust washers in my two 815PL mag pumps. More than once I've had to replace a thrust washer after rinsing out the cleaner and hearing the rotor starting to wobble (which is pretty much the only warning you'll get).

Fortunately the washers are cheap enough when bought in quantity, as I don't know of a more effective cleaning regimen...

Cheers!

This is the first time I hear about PBW's effect on teflon. I should really read the directions/warnings on the jar now I own the original product (won in a raffle). Maybe it's the Metasilicate causing it?
During thorough cleaning cycles I recirculate near boiling PBW, reinforced with NaOH, through my equipment for hours, using a March 809 mag pump. I rarely take the pump head apart, so that washer is probably gone by now.

When the washer is thin/gone, does that cause that horrible screeching sound when turning the pump on at times?

Where do you get those thrust washers in bulk? McMasters?

 

[IslandLizard]

why are you heating either of those??

From Five Star: "CIRCULATION CLEANING: Use 1 to 3 ounces per gallon depending on soil load. Heat to 130° to 180° F for 30 minutes."

Chemical reactions typically double in speed for each 10°C increase in temperature.

So, cleaning reactions are much more efficient at higher temps, as long as the components don't disintegrate prematurely. The Percarbonate releases its loosely bound oxygen much faster at higher temps too, for better or for worse, depending on the task at hand.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]
When the washer is thin/gone, does that cause that horrible screeching sound when turning the pump on at times?
Where do you get those thrust washers in bulk? McMasters?

From my experience when the pump is in full screech mode the washer is either outright missing or has thinned out to where it might as well be gone. But before it gets that far there'll already be audible signs but not enough to stop a brew session.

The ID is a 1/4" clearance hole, so .265 is typical, the OD as measured is 13/32" or .406" but can go larger, to at least .5", without issue. Thickness is 1/16" or .0625".

With all that I never found a comfortable match on McMaster-Carr, and in any case the closest ptfe washers were priced in their typical outlandish fashion when compared to other sources. I got two dozen from Tesco Pumps for 45 cents each around five years ago, but if you Google 'march 0809-0043-1000' you'll find prices ranging from 60 cents on up...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

From my experience when the pump is in full screech mode the washer is either outright missing or has thinned out to where it might as well be gone. But before it gets that far there'll already be audible signs but not enough to stop a brew session.
[...]

Thanks!

I've only encountered the screech mode a few times, never had a clue what caused it, except perhaps a dry pump chamber. I know when filling the pump head fully, before turning the pump on seems to prevent it.

I'm gonna open the pump head and check it out. I'll order some of those washers too.

 

[Stand]

The washer in my chugger pump is teflon, and the impeller is Ryton/Teflon. Is that eventually going to fail running PBW through it?

I never noticed the teflon tape thing.

 

[day_trippr]

I doubt the impeller is at significant risk, but my experience with quarterly hot PBW recirculation indicates your thrust washer will definitely lose mass...

Cheers!