pasteurized cider

[sashurlow]

So its always been said not to use pasteurized cider. If pasteurizing sterilizes the cider, then why is this a bad thing?
So basically, could someone please explain the details about why pasteurizing is bad.
Also, the cider I just bought uses "potassium sorbate (to maintain freshness)". What the heck does that mean?
thanks,
Scott

 

[CorgiBrew]

Pasteurized cider should work, but you won't get anywhere with cider that's been treated with sorbate. Trust me, I know from sad experience (5 gal down the drain)

 

[GinKings]

Potassium sorbate in your cider is a problem. It will prevent your cider from fermenting.

Pasteurized vs non-pasteurized is a personal preference. Either will work. I think some people are concerned about possible flavor changes caused by the pasteurization. IMHO, it's not a big deal.

 

[Edcculus]

Pasteurization will often permanently cloud juice too. Nothing that a little pectic enzyme when pitching the yeast won't fix. Then...there are some that say pectic enzyme is a bad thing too. Basically, unpasteurized is as pure as it gets. There is just the possibility of wild yeast, lacto and pedio in the cider. Its up the the cider maker to clean it up with sulfites (just like wine makers).

Sorbate is a yeast inhibitor (hence "for freshness"), so you will probably have a harder time getting that juice to ferment.

 

[sashurlow]

Well crap... How do I get rid of the sorbate?
I was assuming that since cambden and potassium sorbate are both potassium based, it would get released to the air and go away. Do I just have to wait a while and it will go away?
Scott

 

[GinKings]

Well crap... How do I get rid of the sorbate?
I was assuming that since cambden and potassium sorbate are both potassium based, it would get released to the air and go away. Do I just have to wait a while and it will go away?
Scott

I don't think you can get rid of it.

My local cider mill uses UV light to pasteurize. I wouldn't think that would have much impact on the cider, nor would I expect it to make it cloudy.

 

[Edcculus]

Yea, Potassium Sorbate and Potassium metabisulfite are two completely different things. Sorbate is more of a salt while metabisulfite (potassium or sodium) are sulfur based. Metabisulfites will dissipate rather quickly, while Sorbate will not since it doesn't necessarily react with anything. If you make a starter and pitch enough yeast, you may be able to get a ferment. Sorbate inhibits yeast from reproducing. Therefore, any yeast you put in will ferment, they just won't reproduce. 1 vial, smack pack or sachet of yeast will not be enough. I'd look at making at least a 1L starter using extra light Dry Malt Extract and yeast nutrient. I'd go the malt extract route since its higher in essential nutrients for yeast growth and health than juices.

 

[sashurlow]

bummer... I did do a search and came up with a recipe of boiling sugar water and bread yeast for a starter. I'm going with that route. Its only three gallons, so hopefully three healthy cups of yeast will do the trick. It will also be sitting behind the wood stove, so the temp will be very friendly for the yeasties.
This is a batch with some crab apple jelly mixed in (and strained) so it should be an interesting batch.
So the moral is... Pasteurized: OK. Sorbate: BAD.
Scott

 

[JeepDiver]

bummer... I did do a search and came up with a recipe of boiling sugar water and bread yeast for a starter. I'm going with that route. Its only three gallons, so hopefully three healthy cups of yeast will do the trick. It will also be sitting behind the wood stove, so the temp will be very friendly for the yeasties.
This is a batch with some crab apple jelly mixed in (and strained) so it should be an interesting batch.
So the moral is... Pasteurized: OK. Sorbate: BAD.
Scott

If you are freminting the cider by a stove, the temps are going to be way to high. You will just be making headache juice with all of the fusels.

 

[CorgiBrew]

bummer... I did do a search and came up with a recipe of boiling sugar water and bread yeast for a starter. I'm going with that route. Its only three gallons, so hopefully three healthy cups of yeast will do the trick. It will also be sitting behind the wood stove, so the temp will be very friendly for the yeasties.
This is a batch with some crab apple jelly mixed in (and strained) so it should be an interesting batch.
So the moral is... Pasteurized: OK. Sorbate: BAD.
Scott

Never say never, but I tried to save my sorbated batch with a lot of yeast (having also read that sorbate only prevents yeast reproduction) with no luck. Gave it plenty of time and yeast, but no go. Hope you have better luck!

 

[CvilleKevin]

I've fermented out sorbated treated cider a few times, but it tasted like ass. If you search "sorbate" on the forum, you will find lots of people who have tried to do this and even a few who got it to ferment out, but I dont believe any that got good results.

IMHO your best bet is to save these gallons for drinking and find some better juice to ferment

 

[Bombo80]

When I made apple wine, I used campden tablets to inhibit the natural yeasts to start fermenting. Usually 24 to 48 hours after treating a batch, you then can add your yeast. But with wine you are actually using the whole apple, flesh and all. I don't think you will have too much trouble, as long as you wait a day or two before adding your yeast. Just make sure you have added some additional sugars to the cider to bring up your SG. Generally hard cider has a lower SG than if you are making wine. For example my hard cider with no added sugars had a SG of 1.045. While my wine had a SG of 1.100, due to the sugar and honey I added to it. So, I think if you wait a day or two, add your yeast, let id ferment out, then you can do whatever feels right. You can backsweeten it. You can leave it dry. It also depends on if you are bottling it oe kegging it. Lots of variables, but I think you shouloc still end up with a fairly decent hard cider. It just may take a little more time than if you had pure cider.