Partigyle water adjustment?

[bkboiler]

Hey all!
I've got plans to do a partigyle brew coming up.

A Russian imperial stout from the first runnings and a dry Irish stout from the second. Basically I bought all the ingredients for 5 gallons of imperial stout (OG ~ 1.09) but realized I'd rather have part of it ready to drink sooner. Plan is to add a few ounces of flaked barley during 2nd strike.

I've run the numbers through BrauKaiser's Partigyle calculator, to figure water volumes.

I really have no idea how to run Bru'N water for a case like this though...
any suggestions?
Thanks in advance!

 

[doug293cz]

You may not have enough enzymes in the second mash to covert the flaked barley, which I don't believe has any enzymes itself. This is especially true if you do a mashout on the first mash.

Brew on

 

[bkboiler]

Gotcha....if I was just hoping for the flavor there? Not necessarily conversion, but will that lead to flavor or stability issues if I don't get it?
I may actually need to hold back on the grain bill I bought....
A 1.090 grain bill yields like a 1.100 first runnings and a 1.075 second runnings...
That's beyond both of these beers...although I think my efficiency may be terrible, so I just may nail it!

 

[Kent88]

I'd add a little 6-row or something with some enzymes if you're going to use an adjunct like that.

But I question what you're after adding the flaked barley like that, at only a few ounces. How big of a batch are you aiming for with your second runnings beer?

I don't want to discourage you, I'm just a little puzzled.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I did this a few years ago batch sparging in a cooler with good success.

Looking at my notes, which weren't that great back then so bear with me. For the RIS, using distilled water. A little over 25lbs of grain.

Mash w/5 gallons
Treated w/
Gypsum: 2g
CaCl: 2g
Epsom: 3.6g
Chalk: 2g (yeah, I know now - no comments necessary)
Baking Soda: 6.8g (see above, lol)

Sparged: 5.8 gallons
Gypsum: 0.8g
CaCl: 0.8g
Epsom: 1.4g

Didn't make any notes about what I was targeting.

Collected about 7.75gal/1.080 for RIS -> proceeded with the rest of process.

While boiling the RIS, for the second beer I added the following to the mash and held it there until the RIS was in the carboy:
2lbs - 2 Row
1lb - Flaked oats
4 oz - Roasted Barley
4 oz - Chocolate Malt

9 gallons treated w/:
Gypsum: 3.5g
CaCl: 1.8g
Epsom: 1.8g
Salt: 0.7g

I'm assuming I did two separate batch sparges here, but I can't be sure...

Collected ~7.15 gal of 1.040 Sg for the stout.

It's a long brew day with multiple burners/kettles, planning, and a little luck, but they both turned out. I added coffee to the stout in the primary before kegging and it was great. The RIS got aged for close a year...

Not sure if this helps, and I don't really know if I referenced anything or what my true targets were other than gravity/volume.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Consider blending the gyles. Say...

RIS 85% 1st runnings

Stout 85% 2nd runnings

The way I understand it, the 1st runnings have flavor and body stuff that the 2nds might not have. Also, will allow you to nail whatever respective OGs you want.

 

[bkboiler]

Thanks so much for all the input! I am planning to work the recipe and water details a bit more tonight and will post back plus addressing some comments specifically (today is gonna be crazy). Thanks!

 

[bkboiler]

Done a bit more research...thanks so much for all the input so far!
So I'm looking at the recipes for O'Hara's Celtic Stout and Victory Storm King Imperial Stout from "CloneBrews 2nd Ed" by Mark & Tess Szamatulski....I reworked the partigyle calculator from BrauKaiser pasted below. I also ran Bru'N water for the imperial stout...shows that if I strike with 6.5 gallons of 50% RO water that I need to add absolutely nothing to be square where I want to be minerals and pH wise.

Should I add anything to the boil to achieve a correct balanced final beer? What about the Celtic Stout? Should I just mash with the same 50% RO water and add nothing or will the lack of enzymes and buffers totally screw up this calculation?

Thanks again for all your help. I follow generally what NOT to do, but am still learning a lot about how to figure out all this stuff...

 

[RufusBrewer]

Wouldn't the second run-off be treated as a regular batch sparge? The difference is your first drain of the sparge goes into one boil kettle and the second running go into a different kettle. (or the same kettle after you boil the first run off)

I do know why you would use flaked barley. If you wanted to boost up the gravity of the second run off. Use some more two row barley.

As for water treatment, you got that covered in your initial mash. Bru'in Water covers how to deal with the sparge in a sparge water section. That is what the second partigyle stage is, a batch sparge where the second on run off is not mixed with the first run off.

If you are going to do a second mash, use the same water formulation of the first mash. Mash chemistry is dominated by grain bill. A couple extra pounds of two row in a RIS isn't going to affect enough to worry about.

Personally, I would do a true partigyle. Make a big and a little beer. Enjoy the difference between the two.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It's been a good few years since I've done one but I used to plan my partigyles by calculating a combined grain bill gravity and batch size (and treating all the water at once accordingly). I'd do three roughly equal gyles- say 4 gallons first runnings, 4 gallons 2nd runnings after one batch sparge, then 4 gallons 3rd runnings after a second batch sparge.

Then blend those gyles together to create my worts. As said above all the good stuff is gonna be in the first runnings. 2nd runnings only beers tend to be thinner, blander, more astringent, etc. So strong beer might get 80% first runnings, 20% second runnings, 50% 3rd runnings, and weaker beer might get 20% first runnings, 80% 2nd runnings and 50% 3rd runnings.

Whenever i wanted to add other grains I'd do a separate pretty thick small BIAB mash and blend that in to it as well.

 

[JAReeves]

I did a parti-gyle with an RIS and (what I hoped was going to be) a regular dry stout. I did not mix any of the runnings together (my primary mistake). While the RIS came out exactly right, I had to boost the partigyle with 1# of DME to hit a decent ABV. It didn't come out very stout-flavored, but my friends and neighbors thought it was a right pleasant brown ale.

 

[bkboiler]

Thanks all! I think I'm gonna stop by the LHBS today and maybe shoot the breeze with the owner for a bit about this...from what I've read about historical partigyling, the little beer or table beers were thin like you're saying...
Hmm, maybe since I've got enough pots I'll just do a BIAB in parallel and make a totally different beer and end up with about 5 gallons RIS and 2.5 gallons British Pale ale...
Seems like about as much effort as partigyling especially if I have the equipment.
I'll report back after I go to the LHBS about my additional learnings.
Thanks again for all the helpful input!

 

[bkboiler]

At the LHBS doing research...i.e. they also have 21 beers on tap.
Got some yeast nutrient and flaked barley and 6 row...will try to brew this week maybe if I can prep in advance...and also my back stops hurting.
Pulled a muscle while coughing. My wife is a nurse and she assures me this is common, but it doesn't stop me from feeling old

 

[RufusBrewer]

Anchor Brewing uses to brew a particular pair of beers. The were nice to have side by aide and drink.

I can see taking some first run off and mixing with the second runoff to boost the OG such that the small beer is not "too small". Then put the some of that new second run-off to top off the first run-off.

I would shoot from the hip and settle with what ever you got. It is kind of an experimental process. The more you guys with it, the closer you will get to two worts that are the same.

My motto: You take what the beer gives you.

 

[DuncB]

I managed an unintentional partigyle the other week. After sparging a Baltic porter meant to be 1.085 final I left the malt pipe over my spare ferment bucket to drip whilst the boil etc continued. I poured over another 4 litres of water as the drips that came through were at 1.051.

The following morning to my surprise I had 9.5 litres of 1.071 which I then decided to boil and add hops to. Shorter boil and put 8 + litres in a fermenter.

I fermented this with kveik instead of the lager yeast I'd already pitched in the rest of the brew. It wasn't thin at all ( at 1.077 post boil) and I suppose I could have had a lighter porter if I'd diluted that second sparge.

Very interesting info about the water treatment for the second sparge in the partigyle and I'll remember that for next time. Not sure how to do the water if you do a reiterated mash using the second sparge runnings and some more grains, I'd love to know.