Parallel "anti sweetness" properties bitter/sour

[Owly055]

I've been thinking a great deal about the two properties, bitterness and sourness. Two distinctly different properties, but the difference is not so easily defined.

Bitterness and Sourness both cancel out sweetness, they are both anti sweetness properties, and thus are parallel.

We have IBUs to quantify bitterness, but do not have international souring units to quantify souring properties. Interestingly hops have both properties, though you never hear sourness used to describe a property of hops.

It seems to me that we need to not look at bitterness as a property but as anti-sweetness as a property. Our beer has either a positive or a negative perceived sweetness. Negative sweetness can be bitterness or sourness or a combination of the two, which actually is the case.

The scale we currently use is deeply flawed, as it is based only on alpha acid percentages, and produces what is undeniably an extremely simplistic result. One brew that is 55 IBUs may taste crisp and pleasant, and not really "bitter" to the palette, and the next at the same IBUs may seem extremely bitter on the palette. We are using 2 dimensional values in a three dimensional world, and it really doesn't work.

This really does not become obvious if you brew "recipes" rather than crafting your own, or work within a limited suite of hops. It doesn't become obvious until you begin experimenting, and have quite a few brews behind you. It's like looking at a color world in black and white.

Beer is a three or more dimensional product, and we seem limited to 2 dimensional tools to describe it. The entire model we are using is inadequate and archaic, yet I have not seen anything that attempts to add the missing dimension. The human mind and sensory apparatus are multi dimensional, and to my mind the truly great brewers are able to encompass the entire range in their minds, even though the tools to articulate it are entirely lacking.


H.W.

 

[iijakii]

First off, you can definitely measure sourness by looking at the beer's pH level. And you might be interested to do some reading on IBU/OG scale, it's still not all inclusive but it gives you more of an idea than just straight IBUs.

 

[drainbamage]

I'm not sure what you mean by hops providing sourness?


EDIT: and piggybacking on what iijakii said, some breweries that specialize in sours will print pH on the beer list right alongside the typical measurements like ABV, SRM, IBU.

 

[blizzard]

I don't understand. You are saying that our descriptors are inadequate, but then you advocate combining two totally separate flavors into one anti-sweetness descriptor. How will that improve our understanding of flavor?

 

[GuldTuborg]

Flavors tend not to "cancel each other out," but they can provide some sort of balance to the product. Beer is like every other culinary product in this regard. It's difficult to measure all compounds that might play a role in certain flavors, but we can make rudimentary steps towards doing so (IBUs, pH, sugar content, ect.).

I'd suggest looking into culinary theories of quantifying and balancing flavors. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[DisturbdChemist]

The scale we currently use is deeply flawed, as it is based only on alpha acid percentages, and produces what is undeniably an extremely simplistic result. One brew that is 55 IBUs may taste crisp and pleasant, and not really "bitter" to the palette, and the next at the same IBUs may seem extremely bitter on the palette. We are using 2 dimensional values in a three dimensional world, and it really doesn't work.

Both beers can be 55 ibus and be completely different not because of the hops but the salts aka ions in the water. Some enhance the bitterness some enhance the maltiness. If the base is the same. Some of the logic in your above post doesnt make sense. Like what is said above, sourness and bitterness are opposites and you can tell them apart easily. Sourness is measure by pH and bitterness is IBUs. No need to combine the two.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I think you're overlooking some relevant differences. Sour and bitter aren't opposites, in any normal use of the term, and IBUs and pH aren't measuring bitterness and sourness any more than a hydrometer measures sugar. When discussing something this nuanced, it helps to be clear about these terms and how you use them.

 

[Auger]

If they cancel each other out, then sweettarts are quite the dimensional paradox.

 

[Auger]

And sweet and sour pork is, from now on, just "pork".

 

[solbes]

Agree with the DisturbdChemist about the Chloride to Sulfate ratio. Another factor that plays into the Malt to Hop balance.

As far as figuring out where to target experiemental brews, some tools do exist to help dial in recipes. I find this one pretty helpful to explain the principle, but it seems way off on the higher gravity stuff. For example, my recent RIS came in just north of 1.100 with 90 IBU. According to the chart, this would be out of this world hoppy, but its actually quite well suited to balance the residual sugars in the RIS (1.025 FG). For the moderate gravity brews it seems pretty accurate. It is an old chart, and not really one updated to life in the "my DIPA has 150 IBU's with 11 oz of hops". So take it for what its worth.

Instead of a linear model, I would suggest a better would be 2 factor polynomial with the line curving towards increased IBU's as you move up the gravity scale.

 

[Yooper]

Flavors tend not to "cancel each other out," but they can provide some sort of balance to the product. Beer is like every other culinary product in this regard. It's difficult to measure all compounds that might play a role in certain flavors, but we can make rudimentary steps towards doing so (IBUs, pH, sugar content, ect.).

I'd suggest looking into culinary theories of quantifying and balancing flavors. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.

Right.

Think of lemonade. It's sweet, but it's sour/tart.

Adding salt to roast lamb doesn't "cancel" lemon zest. It adds depth of flavors.

__________________________________________________

Also, folks, keep on topic, or don't post. memes and remarks that aren't on topic will be deleted. Thanks.

 

[Auger]

Right.

Adding salt to roast lamb doesn't "cancel" lemon zest. It adds depth of flavors.

This....taking two different flavor properties and combining them doesn't simplify or increase the accuracy of anything.

For example, my recent RIS came in just north of 1.100 with 90 IBU. According to the chart, this would be out of this world hoppy, but its actually quite well suited to balance the residual sugars in the RIS (1.025 FG).

Right....Now image that instead of trying to add "antisweetness" with the hops, you tried a low IBU sour beer. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around how that would come out...maybe like a really heavy oud bruin? In any case, drastically different result, and not interchageable with IBU.

The scale as mentioned, is not "flawed" in my opinion. It's intended to measure one thing - hop bitterness level. The way a particular bitterness level is perceived is highly dependent on other factors in the beer, i.e. residual sweetness/body, sourness, and all the other multitudes of flavors found in a complex beer.

 

[Yooper]

If you want to look at bitter/sweet flavors in beer, the best way to do it is the IBU/SG ratio.

The amount of actual IBUs is meaningless. First, it's a calculated guess at best anyway (unless you have a lab measure it), but it needs to be looked at in the context of the SG of the wort.

Say you have a beer that is 55 IBUs. That can be very very bitter, or very very sweet. It's all about balance.

Here's what I mean. You have a beer with an OG of 1.039 and those 55 IBUs. That means a ratio of 1.460 in the IBU/SG ratio. That is tongue numbingly bitter.

You have the same 55 IBUs in an OG wort of 1.099. That means an IBU/SG ratio of .558. The beer will be malty, and lean way more to sweet than bitter.

Beer (and food) is all about balance.

the other thing with flavors is that there are more than a multitude of flavors in beer! http://hbd.org/brewery/library/FlavW.html

Limiting Acetaldehyde or ethyl hexanoate, as examples of an apple flavor, to "tart" or phenethyl alcohol to "sweet" means that we limit our descriptions of flavors not enhance it.

There is a lot more going on in all beers, especially sours, that give flavor. Limited ourselves to just calling them opposing flavors (which they are not) means limiting our understanding of the flavor of the beer.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

There's another issue in that bitterness is subjective, whereas alpha acid content can be measured pretty straightforwardly. They tend to correlate pretty strongly if everything else is kept equal, so we measure the thing that's easily measured and use it to estimate the harder-to-measure thing it correlates with.

It's not really different from estimating the speed of your car based on how fast the axles are rotating, which is what speedometers actually measure.

 

[GuldTuborg]

There is a lot more going on in all beers, especially sours, that give flavor. Limited ourselves to just calling them opposing flavors (which they are not) means limiting our understanding of the flavor of the beer.

Exactly right. To further add to this, there are a multitude of compounds that have "bitter" and "sweet" flavors, each with its own unique taste, if you know how to identify it. Isomerized alpha acids taste bitter, but so do beta acids, many substances added by roast malt, multitudes of herbs, citrus pith, and all kinds of things that are commonly added to beer. Sweetness is a bit simpler, in comparison, but still complex overall. If you train your palate to pick these tastes out, it's quite possible to taste them all at once.

Don't get hung up on lab tests, OP. It strikes me that, more than anything, you're not fully understanding what these tests measure, what we can learn from them, and how we ought to be using them in the context of brewing, analyzing, or describing beers. Or, to take things a step further, what is even possible with lab tests on the contents of beers. I'm not criticizing, just trying to advance the conversation around the topic at hand.

There's another issue in that bitterness is subjective, whereas alpha acid content can be measured pretty straightforwardly. They tend to correlate pretty strongly if everything else is kept equal, so we measure the thing that's easily measured and use it to estimate the harder-to-measure thing it correlates with.

It's not really different from estimating the speed of your car based on how fast the axles are rotating, which is what speedometers actually measure.

Except that tire rotation and linear speed all happen and can be described using the same vocabulary and from the same perspective. The same cannot be said of taste and ingredients. A better analogy might be the perception of movement and linear speed. Moving 700mph on the ground versus at 30,000 feet up in a plane make for very different experiences.

 

[Owly055]

I think you're overlooking some relevant differences. Sour and bitter aren't opposites, in any normal use of the term, and IBUs and pH aren't measuring bitterness and sourness any more than a hydrometer measures sugar. When discussing something this nuanced, it helps to be clear about these terms and how you use them.

I of course didn't say sour and bitter were opposite, I said they were parallel. Opposites cancel each other out. Both bitterness and sourness cancel sweetness, which makes them parallel properties, different but not opposites. IBUs give a measure of anti sweetness, which is reflected in the BUGU charts. There is no such chart covering sourness that I know of, or any accepted way to quantify it in brewing.


H.W.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I of course didn't say sour and bitter were opposite, I said they were parallel.

Yes, you did. Someone else said they were opposite, and my response was, in part, to address that. I still disagree about the "parallel" thing.

Opposites cancel each other out. Both bitterness and sourness cancel sweetness

No, they don't.

IBUs give a measure of anti sweetness

No, it doesn't.

which is reflected in the BUGU charts. There is no such chart covering sourness that I know of, or any accepted way to quantify it in brewing.

The similar content measurement to IBU is pH, though they're not really analogous. Neither measures taste factors, like bitterness or sourness.

It's not clear to me whether you haven't read the content between post #1 and now, or whether you disagree with the assessment for some reason (as most everyone else is roughly on the same page). Care to weigh in?

 

[Psylocide]

What about the way sour beers are brewed? I don't know anything about the process, but would assume blending plays a big role in creating a consistent product?

If that is the case (please someone correct me if I'm wrong, I can take it...), are these large breweries simply blending these beers to reach certain pH levels or does the actual taste play a bigger role, as far as finding out the ratio at which to blend these beers to end up with a consistent product?

It would appear that you're trying to break the myriad of tastes and sensations down to a numbered system, which to me seems like an awfully laborious way to over-simplify how we describe and perceive flavors.

 

[TheCADJockey]

The entire model we are using is inadequate and archaic, yet I have not seen anything that attempts to add the missing dimension.

I'll ask again, this time without the lighthearted meme. What dimension exactly do you think is missing?

Also, completely agree (not that it matters since Yooper easily made science of it all) that IBU's don't matter. What is bitter to you, might not taste bitter at all to me... and opposite for sours. Tastes are funny.

 

[BGBC]

Both bitterness and sourness cancel sweetness, which makes them parallel properties, different but not opposites.

Both of those flavors can balance sweetness, but they don't cancel it because it's a completely different taste and measurable property - it's still present in the beer.

anti sweetness

Not a thing.

or any accepted way to quantify it in brewing.

pH, not just for brewing either

 

[GuldTuborg]

What about the way sour beers are brewed? I don't know anything about the process, but would assume blending plays a big role in creating a consistent product?

If that is the case (please someone correct me if I'm wrong, I can take it...), are these large breweries simply blending these beers to reach certain pH levels or does the actual taste play a bigger role, as far as finding out the ratio at which to blend these beers to end up with a consistent product?

It would appear that you're trying to break the myriad of tastes and sensations down to a numbered system, which to me seems like an awfully laborious way to over-simplify how we describe and perceive flavors.

Not all sour beers are the product of blending, and some non-sours are. That little caveat out of the way, I would imagine most blenders consider both sensory (primarily taste and smell) factors as well as chemically measured factors, like pH.

Ultimately, it all comes down to taste and aroma, though. We want our beers to taste and smell good, not have a particular pH, right? Measuring pH can help to streamline the process of finding the right blend, but the sensory elements are the final arbiter.

 

[Psylocide]

Not all sour beers are the product of blending, and some non-sours are. That little caveat out of the way, I would imagine most blenders consider both sensory (primarily taste and smell) factors as well as chemically measured factors, like pH.

Ultimately, it all comes down to taste and aroma, though. We want our beers to taste and smell good, not have a particular pH, right? Measuring pH can help to streamline the process of finding the right blend, but the sensory elements are the final arbiter.

Thanks for that, and also reinforces the point I was trying to make.

 

[stpug]

TA (titratable acidity) is more important than pH in the world of sour beers, but coupled with pH makes for a very good indicator of "how sour" a beer is. pH alone can be very deceiving and unreliable.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Thanks for that, and also reinforces the point I was trying to make.

Sure thing. I think there was a good article on blending sours in Zymurgy not so long ago, but I'd have to search a bit to find it. There are other interviews I've seen on how some go through the process, and it's not terribly different from wine blending. Mike Tonsmeire has a few blog posts that gives a glimpse of how a few approach the process.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/04/blending-lambic-into-gueuze-with-two.html

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2011/10/beer-blending-experiment.html

TA (titratable acidity) is more important than pH in the world of sour beers, but coupled with pH makes for a very good indicator of "how sour" a beer is. pH alone can be very deceiving and unreliable.

Excellent point. pH is already a complex (ratio) measurement. Two different beers with the same pH could vary quite dramatically in acidity present, in different forms, in different concentrations. Still, we seem to be struggling with simpler concepts already here, so I wasn't going to bring it up myself.

 

[bob1852]

IBUs give a measure of anti sweetness

No, IBU's are:

Nothing more, nothing less.... (well, at least the Rager formula )

 

[stpug]

I've been thinking a great deal about the two properties, bitterness and sourness. Two distinctly different properties, but the difference is not so easily defined.

Bitterness and Sourness both cancel out sweetness, they are both anti sweetness properties, and thus are parallel.

We have IBUs to quantify bitterness, but do not have international souring units to quantify souring properties. Interestingly hops have both properties, though you never hear sourness used to describe a property of hops.

It seems to me that we need to not look at bitterness as a property but as anti-sweetness as a property. Our beer has either a positive or a negative perceived sweetness. Negative sweetness can be bitterness or sourness or a combination of the two, which actually is the case.

The scale we currently use is deeply flawed, as it is based only on alpha acid percentages, and produces what is undeniably an extremely simplistic result. One brew that is 55 IBUs may taste crisp and pleasant, and not really "bitter" to the palette, and the next at the same IBUs may seem extremely bitter on the palette. We are using 2 dimensional values in a three dimensional world, and it really doesn't work.

This really does not become obvious if you brew "recipes" rather than crafting your own, or work within a limited suite of hops. It doesn't become obvious until you begin experimenting, and have quite a few brews behind you. It's like looking at a color world in black and white.

Beer is a three or more dimensional product, and we seem limited to 2 dimensional tools to describe it. The entire model we are using is inadequate and archaic, yet I have not seen anything that attempts to add the missing dimension. The human mind and sensory apparatus are multi dimensional, and to my mind the truly great brewers are able to encompass the entire range in their minds, even though the tools to articulate it are entirely lacking.


H.W.

They are very different sensations to us (humans) and I imagine that they have been studied extensively by scholars since each is one of the five taste sensations of taste buds. I would suspect that these sensations have been fairly well defined and described in higher-level literature, but certainly less-so in most homebrewing literature (Brewers Publications for example). Being distinctly different sensations, I wouldn't refer to them as "parallel" sensations. While they may serve a somewhat similar function in beer brewing, their sensations are so different that I don't think of them as "parallel". Parallel to me means that they are congruent with each other and, to me, they are definitely not congruent with each other. In other words, I can't simply replace one with the other in any of my beers and have a closely-matched end product.

I understand your referencing them as "anti-sweetness properties" but I don't agree that they exactly cancel out sweetness; thus, I would (personally) refrain from calling them anti-sweetness ("counter-sweetness" may be more accurate but still not ideal). In my own experience, they simply provide a balance to the sweetness - the sweetness is still there but it's not as pronounced since my brain is busy interpreting the other characteristics as well.

We have ways of quantifying bitterness and sourness in beers and, while the latter is less developed for the lay beerbrewer, it works fairly well (certainly better than we are able to control the wild microbes ). I would estimate that it works as well as IBU calculations do, anyway. There's certainly still room for development in both areas when it comes to home beer brewing.

An example of how IBU and sweetness cannot be held against each other would be to taste any of the many barleywines that are available where you'll find some of the highest levels of measured IBUs as well as the highest levels of perceived sweetness of any beers. Those DIPAs and IIPAs are not far off either. One doesn't "cancel" the other, per se, but aims to provide a balance to the beer.

I like your take on critically thinking about the brewing process, and even if one idea leads to a dead-end, often times you find another avenue to discover along the way.

Cheers

 

[Owly055]

They are very different sensations to us (humans) and I imagine that they have been studied extensively by scholars since each is one of the five taste sensations of taste buds. I would suspect that these sensations have been fairly well defined and described in higher-level literature, but certainly less-so in most homebrewing literature (Brewers Publications for example). Being distinctly different sensations, I wouldn't refer to them as "parallel" sensations. While they may serve a somewhat similar function in beer brewing, their sensations are so different that I don't think of them as "parallel". Parallel to me means that they are congruent with each other and, to me, they are definitely not congruent with each other. In other words, I can't simply replace one with the other in any of my beers and have a closely-matched end product.

I understand your referencing them as "anti-sweetness properties" but I don't agree that they exactly cancel out sweetness; thus, I would (personally) refrain from calling them anti-sweetness ("counter-sweetness" may be more accurate but still not ideal). In my own experience, they simply provide a balance to the sweetness - the sweetness is still there but it's not as pronounced since my brain is busy interpreting the other characteristics as well.

We have ways of quantifying bitterness and sourness in beers and, while the latter is less developed for the lay beerbrewer, it works fairly well (certainly better than we are able to control the wild microbes ). I would estimate that it works as well as IBU calculations do, anyway. There's certainly still room for development in both areas when it comes to home beer brewing.

An example of how IBU and sweetness cannot be held against each other would be to taste any of the many barleywines that are available where you'll find some of the highest levels of measured IBUs as well as the highest levels of perceived sweetness of any beers. Those DIPAs and IIPAs are not far off either. One doesn't "cancel" the other, per se, but aims to provide a balance to the beer.

I like your take on critically thinking about the brewing process, and even if one idea leads to a dead-end, often times you find another avenue to discover along the way.

Cheers

I do disagree with you on this. The BU/GU ratio reflects this where bitterness is concerned. A given IBU will not be perceived as being as bitter in a high gravity brew as a low gravity brew, while "sweetness" may not be the exact term to use here, it's the best I can come up with to encompass the flavor properties that bitterness masks or counteracts, or whatever term you choose to use, to achieve that "balance" you speak of. Terminology is the problem here, not the general concept. If we were to take a simple sugar syrup solution and look at it instead of beer with it's more complex array of flavors, and we were to have taste testers taste it, putting measured amounts of "hop shot" in increasing concentrations, and arbitrarily assign a sweetness number to each sample rather than a bitterness number. And then have another array of samples, each with increasing amounts of something that would give them sourness, and then ask our taste testers to decide which samples corresponded in terms of sweetness, there is no doubt at all in my mind that they could successfully correlate the sweetness of samples from both. As more and more people ran through this, and statistics were gathered, we would find that the results would be pretty consistent, giving us a usable scale.
The problem would become how to measure the sourness consistently. We have a bitterness scale that if imperfect is fairly workable.

As I wrote before, beer is multi dimensional in terms of flavor, and each flavor property could ultimately be quantified, or at least described, and hop and malt descriptions make a feeble attempt to do this, nor do they do it very well. It's a complex array of taste, aroma, and other sensations. For now I was suggesting that viewing bitterness and sourness in reverse, as "anti sweetness" for lack of better language, could be a useful tool in brewing sour beers in particular. I believe that quantifying bitterness and sourness not as bitterness or sourness, but by their ability to offset sweetness could be a relatively useful tool and would not be all that difficult to accomplish.

The problem with this thread is communication, not that I or anybody else lacks communication skills necessarily, but we lack the linguistic tools to even express these things in ways that accurately communicate and understand each other on the topic. It's as if there is a "garbelizer" (kind of like a scrambler) on the line.

I'm sorry I even opened this thread, I'd hoped that somehow some common ground could be discovered, maybe even a way forward toward a useful brewing tool. That's obviously not going to happen. I'm reminded of the old saw "If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman around to hear him.... Is he still wrong"........

H.W.

 

[DisturbdChemist]

l

The problem with this thread is communication, not that I or anybody else lacks communication skills necessarily, but we lack the linguistic tools to even express these things in ways that accurately communicate and understand each other on the topic. It's as if there is a "garbelizer" (kind of like a scrambler) on the line.
H.W.

Come down from your high horse. It seems you like using the thesaurus and use terms like "antisweet" to make your argument confusing and almost as insulting as your last post and previous "questions". You do not budge from your initial thought even when people are nice and trying to figure out how to help you on your question. This is counterintuitive (i can use big words too). You seem like you have a nose up and think you're better than us which is not true. We all are here to help and learn. If you cant take our questions to figure out what you are asking then there is no point making this questions when you think you are always right. Just going around in circles.

D.P

 

[hunter_le five]

Come down from your high horse. It seems you like using the thesaurus and use terms like "antisweet" to make your argument confusing and almost as insulting as your last post and previous "questions". You do not budge from your initial thought even when people are nice and trying to figure out how to help you on your question. This is counterintuitive (i can use big words too). You seem like you have a nose up and think you're better than us which is not true. We all are here to help and learn. If you cant take our questions to figure out what you are asking then there is no point making this questions when you think you are always right. Just going around in circles.

D.P

"You don't agree with me, therefore you must not understand what I'm saying."

 

[stpug]

I feel as though I understand what you're describing, and think I understand where you're trying to go with this, AND agree that it's probably a worthwhile thread/venture to put the effort in to. I also recognize that your "crazy" ideas are about as well received as Einstein's or Newton's were in their time. Stick with it and don't give up on us just yet

I'll put in some red comments below:

I do disagree with you on this. The BU/GU ratio reflects this where bitterness is concerned {So we just need to come up with a SouringUnit/GU scale}. A given IBU will not be perceived as being as bitter in a high gravity brew as a low gravity brew, while "sweetness" may not be the exact term to use here, it's the best I can come up with to encompass the flavor properties that bitterness masks or counteracts, or whatever term you choose to use, to achieve that "balance" you speak of {I think "sweetness" is a perfectly fine word to use since it IS one of the five taste bud senses}. Terminology is the problem here, not the general concept {Quite possibly so}.

If we were to take a simple sugar syrup solution and look at it instead of beer with it's more complex array of flavors, and we were to have taste testers taste it, putting measured amounts of "hop shot" in increasing concentrations, and arbitrarily assign a sweetness number to each sample rather than a bitterness number. And then have another array of samples, each with increasing amounts of something that would give them sourness, and then ask our taste testers to decide which samples corresponded in terms of sweetness, there is no doubt at all in my mind that they could successfully correlate the sweetness of samples from both. {Couldn't we extrapolate that to saltiness (and umami - if you believe in it) as well? We would then have samples that are rated at varying levels of sweetness and, most likely, all would find some correlation that as the quantity of counter-acting agent is increased to the sample that the level of perceived sweetness goes down? It seems reasonable to me. But then what exactly does this mean, and is it very meaningful? Does is simply mean that X quantity of bittering agent yields a similar sweetness reduction as Y quantity of souring agent, and that the scale is linear? Perhaps this aspect needs a little more fleshing out.} As more and more people ran through this, and statistics were gathered, we would find that the results would be pretty consistent, giving us a usable scale {Perhaps, but I'm not convinced just yet. I feel like this is too simplistic but, then again, maybe it doesn't need to be.}.
The problem would become how to measure the sourness consistently {TA and pH combined should provide all that is needed to provide a consistent measure of sourness}. We have a bitterness scale that if imperfect is fairly workable.

As I wrote before, beer is multi dimensional in terms of flavor, and each flavor property could ultimately be quantified, or at least described, and hop and malt descriptions make a feeble attempt to do this, nor do they do it very well {I agree that most hop and/or malt descriptions are pretty feeble attempts, particularly when you factor in the interactions that take place between the various ingredients of beer AS WELL AS the biological factor; however, feeble is better than none at all I suppose.}. It's a complex array of taste, aroma, and other sensations. For now I was suggesting that viewing bitterness and sourness in reverse, as "anti sweetness" for lack of better language, could be a useful tool in brewing sour beers in particular {Having some kind of scale the quantifies the amount of souring agent needed to put a beer into varying levels of sourness would be useful; granted, definitively achieving that measure of sourness is an entirely different matter (biologically speaking)}. I believe that quantifying bitterness and sourness not as bitterness or sourness, but by their ability to offset sweetness could be a relatively useful tool and would not be all that difficult to accomplish {I feel as though that's what the BU/GU ratio attempts, and factoring in FG increases the accuracy by some percentage. Having something similar for sourness could prove useful too. If it's not too difficult then I would recommend developing the scale and putting it out there for brewers to utilize. It's gotta start somewhere, even if that somewhere is a poor starting point, it's a starting point nonetheless.}.

The problem with this thread is communication, not that I or anybody else lacks communication skills necessarily, but we lack the linguistic tools to even express these things in ways that accurately communicate and understand each other on the topic. It's as if there is a "garbelizer" (kind of like a scrambler) on the line. {Sh!t, the worst part is that I speak about as well as I write in these threads }

I'm sorry I even opened this thread, I'd hoped that somehow some common ground could be discovered, maybe even a way forward toward a useful brewing tool. That's obviously not going to happen. I'm reminded of the old saw "If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman around to hear him.... Is he still wrong"........ {Don't be sorry, and don't give up simply because some folks who you don't know and probably wouldn't be friends with in RL, don't want to provide constructive feedback. Find the gems hidden in the fluff. I'm fairly confident that part of the problem is that you've developed a "reputation" here and folks find it easy to poke at you, AND THEY GET A REACTION FROM YOU! Ignore the fluff and focus on the gems - keep on point.}

H.W.