Pannepot (Old Fisherman's Ale) Clone Thread

[rconnoll]

Looks good to me! Really the thing I needed to change was the heaviness of the beer. It came out in the end far more on the cherry notes than I wanted, though is still very delicious. I see you are in Redwood City; I am in San Jose / Campbell area, once you have then ready want to swap a bottle to compare note?

Hey, Yotie: I'd DEFINITELY be up for a bottle trade. Thanks for the input, too. The biggest difference I came across in recipes is the flaked maize -- I'm used TWO POUNDS vs. your 1/4 lb. This is based off of the Candi Syrup recipe, and given that your only complaint with your beer was a thin body, I figure it's worth a shot.

I'll keep you posted.
-Ryan

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Sounds good! Also, watch your fermentation temps. If I recall correctly, I let mine do the quick natural rise to high that you want for quads, but it came off as too hot on the nose.

 

[rconnoll]

Roger that. We just finished testing our new temp controller (we call it mission control) and we are able to hold to +/- 1 degree F.

 

[TNGabe]

Roger that. We just finished testing our new temp controller (we call it mission control) and we are able to hold to +/- 1 degree F.

I haven't tried to clone Pannepot (yet) but I've used t-58 in BDSA/Quads and I'd suggest starting at 64 and holding it there for 48hrs or so.

 

[PureIrishStout]

Hey y'all,

I've been studying the last 100 or so posts to this thread and am brewing my own version this weekend. It is a hybrid of Yotie and CSI's recipes, along with one I found at Candi Sugars website: http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pannepot_gran_reserva_-_variation_003x.pdf

I plan to brew this Sunday and would love any pre-brew feedback before then. I'll keep the list updated on my progress!

Here is my recipe:

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50
OG: 1.098
FG: 1.026
ABV: 9.1%
IBU: 30.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Sugar
--------------
14 lbs. Belgian Pilsner
1.0 lbs. Special B
2.0 lbs. Flaked Corn
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Chocolate Malt
0.125 lbs. Pale Chocolate Malt
1.0 lbs. D-180 Candi Syrup
1.0 lbs. Brun Foncé soft candi sugar

Hops
------
2.00 oz. Kent Goldings @ 45 min.
1.00 oz. Hallertau @ 15 min.

Spice Tea in 8oz water, 2 min boil, added to fermenter at yeast pitching
--------
3.00 gm Coriander Seed
5.00 gm Fresh Orange Zest
1.00 gm Cinnamon
3.00 gm FRESH Thyme (increased for fresh herbs and to preserve flavor longterm)

Yeast
-----
T-58

Mash Schedule
-------------
90 min @ 156F
1.5 qt/lb; 6.52 gallons approx
2.78 gallons approx for sparging @170


Fermentation Schedule
-------------
Pitch at 65F
65-70 F, 4-5 day ramp
Rack to secondary, 65° F, 2 weeks
50° F, 6 weeks
Bottle
Condition cold for 2 months

------------


Just realized I wasn't logged into the correct account when I posted this recipe. THIS is the right account. Time to deactivate my old free account...

 

[skibb]

So I just had this beer at a small little tasting - and most of us picked out a distinct cola note in the 2011 bottle we had. I'm a little surprised it hasn't been mentioned here before but maybe we were all convincing ourselves it was there. I'm guessing it likely came from the spices pairing with the dark fruits/sugar flavors prevalent in this beer.

A further look into the spicing for cola shows a few similarities: coriander, cinnamon, orange zest...lavender (sometimes substituted for thyme) and vanilla (cited as being in the Reserva http://web.archive.org/web/20110630...rdhoek.com//eng/images/stories/pnpreserva.jpg)...which I'm not sure is a different base recipe.

I'm really wanting to come up with a clone recipe for this beer!

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

So I just had this beer at a small little tasting - and most of us picked out a distinct cola note in the 2011 bottle we had. I'm a little surprised it hasn't been mentioned here before but maybe we were all convincing ourselves it was there. I'm guessing it likely came from the spices pairing with the dark fruits/sugar flavors prevalent in this beer.

A further look into the spicing for cola shows a few similarities: coriander, cinnamon, orange zest...lavender (sometimes substituted for thyme) and vanilla (cited as being in the Reserva http://web.archive.org/web/20110630...rdhoek.com//eng/images/stories/pnpreserva.jpg)...which I'm not sure is a different base recipe.

I'm really wanting to come up with a clone recipe for this beer!

Interesting observation. The spice contribution + candi syrup make sense.

 

[skibb]

So two things from last night...

I was drinking Lion Stout, and this beer got me thinking back on Pannepot - it's very dark, not too sweet, and very mildly roasty - there are no clones for this beer our there, but being an FES, known people like Kris England speculate that a fair portion of this beer's fermentables come from maize/sugar additions, and also contribute to some color as well (i.e. brewers caramel). Quite a similar structure to Pannepot's grist. Kris talks about this in his emails with Revvy in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/anyone-have-real-lions-stout-clone-200557/

Now here's where it gets more interesting - while looking up interviews of De Struisse/Urbain I came across this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HHjX8_dMi4M

In the Pannepot section (4:00 mark) he describes Pannepot as a marriage between a Belgian Dark Strong and a 'soft' Foreign Extra Stout!

This makes me think that perhaps the recipes in this thread may be a bit shy on the roasted malts for this beer - I'm thinking they may likely be slightly higher than the 1-2% that are in these recipes. Yeti describes that his beer doesn't quite have the darkness and flavor associated with it and this may be a contributing reason. I wouldn't go overboard on the roast, but maybe bump it up a percentage or two - there still should be enough body and residual sweetness to have it come off more cocoa in flavor rather than roasty...at least that is what I'm thinking...

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

So two things from last night...

I was drinking Lion Stout, and this beer got me thinking back on Pannepot - it's very dark, not too sweet, and very mildly roasty - there are no clones for this beer our there, but being an FES, known people like Kris England speculate that a fair portion of this beer's fermentables come from maize/sugar additions, and also contribute to some color as well (i.e. brewers caramel). Quite a similar structure to Pannepot's grist. Kris talks about this in his emails with Revvy in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/anyone-have-real-lions-stout-clone-200557/

Now here's where it gets more interesting - while looking up interviews of De Struisse/Urbain I came across this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HHjX8_dMi4M

In the Pannepot section (4:00 mark) he describes Pannepot as a marriage between a Belgian Dark Strong and a 'soft' Foreign Extra Stout!

This makes me think that perhaps the recipes in this thread may be a bit shy on the roasted malts for this beer - I'm thinking they may likely be slightly higher than the 1-2% that are in these recipes. Yeti describes that his beer doesn't quite have the darkness and flavor associated with it and this may be a contributing reason. I wouldn't go overboard on the roast, but maybe bump it up a percentage or two - there still should be enough body and residual sweetness to have it come off more cocoa in flavor rather than roasty...at least that is what I'm thinking...

...having had a few OFA's I can objectively say that OFA does not have much palatable dark malt.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I've read through this entire thread and appreciate all the very helpful comments. Are there any final recommendations to changes to the recipes based on final results? Thank you.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

The beer, in my opinion, ended too sweet. There is a lot going on there, so no need for a lot of left over sugars. I would keep the mash temp in check, and perhaps add some of the candi syrup once fermentation has started to slow down.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

The beer, in my opinion, ended too sweet. There is a lot going on there, so no need for a lot of left over sugars. I would keep the mash temp in check, and perhaps add some of the candi syrup once fermentation has started to slow down.

The final sweetness would be a significant concern. Thanks for the suggestion about adding some of the candi sugar at a later stage of fermentation.

 

[biertourist]

Anyone attempted the 2008 Grande Reserva version of this aged in calvados (apple brandy) barrels?

I've had the Grand Reserva twice now and it's seriously one of the most shockly amazing beers I've ever had; I find really strong Belgians INCREDIBLY difficult to clone even remotely closely or I would attempt this and age some oak infusion spirals on calvados and add a grand reserva twist to this one...


Adam

 

[biertourist]

The beer, in my opinion, ended too sweet. There is a lot going on there, so no need for a lot of left over sugars. I would keep the mash temp in check, and perhaps add some of the candi syrup once fermentation has started to slow down.

Adding more sugar doesn't dry out a beer any more; worst-case, it does the opposite. You have to REMOVE malt and REPLACE it with sugar for that.

I know it's an oft-repeated myth, but still a myth.


Adam

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Adding more sugar doesn't dry out a beer any more; worst-case, it does the opposite. You have to REMOVE malt and REPLACE it with sugar for that.

I know it's an oft-repeated myth, but still a myth.


Adam

Maybe I'm not understanding what Tall_Yotie said correctly, but I don't think he was saying to add MORE candi sugar at a later stage of fermentation than is specified in the recipe, but to hold back adding some of the candi sugar in the recipe until later, when the fermentation is slowing down. I assume that this should give the yeast a boost resulting in a higher attenuation.

Tall_Yotie, can you please clariy?

 

[biertourist]

Maybe I'm not understanding what Tall_Yotie said correctly, but I don't think he was saying to add MORE candi sugar at a later stage of fermentation than is specified in the recipe, but to hold back adding some of the candi sugar in the recipe until later, when the fermentation is slowing down. I assume that this should give the yeast a boost resulting in a higher attenuation.

Tall_Yotie, can you please clariy?

If that's what he said, then he's probably right and I misunderstood.

Many ultra strong beer makers hold back some simple sugars and feed it slowly late in fermentation to goad the yeast along.

There IS a pretty pervasive myth / misunderstanding that you just ADD some sugar and feed it to the yeast late and it some how "super charges" them / slaps them in the face / gives them a shot of sugar espresso and they then finish fermenting the other sugars. (Literally some crazy logic that says that the yeast wasn't going to eat the remaining sugars so you just add more sugar and it wakes them up and then they eat it all.) -I've encountered this messed up logic too many times so I'm sensitive to it.


Adam

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Maybe I'm not understanding what Tall_Yotie said correctly, but I don't think he was saying to add MORE candi sugar at a later stage of fermentation than is specified in the recipe, but to hold back adding some of the candi sugar in the recipe until later, when the fermentation is slowing down. I assume that this should give the yeast a boost resulting in a higher attenuation.

Tall_Yotie, can you please clariy?

You are correct. Not adding more, just splitting it.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Adding more sugar doesn't dry out a beer any more; worst-case, it does the opposite. You have to REMOVE malt and REPLACE it with sugar for that.

I know it's an oft-repeated myth, but still a myth.


Adam

Concur. In fact, some of the darker syrups actually add head and body.

 

[TNGabe]

I'd totally forgotten about this thread. Just found some Bramling Cross in the deep freeze I'd gotten to take a stab at Pannepot a couple years ago.

 

[MeanDeuce]

any updates on these pannepot OFA clones? probably going to attempt one in a few weeks.

 

[Algonzo]

Thanks to everybody who's contributed to this thread. Pannepot is one of my favorite beers and reproducing something like it was one of the reasons I started homebrewing. Based on the ideas in this thread, I brewed this back in November:

[5.5g, 1.095-->1.021 (75% efficient, 75% attenuation) ABV=9.7+% SRM=36]
15.6lb pilsner / 2-row (pilsner Best Malz, 2-row Canada Malting Co)
0.14lb munich (Canada Malting Co)
0.32lb chocolate (Bairds)
0.46lb flaked corn (Briess)
0.45lb special b (Chateau)
1.88lb d180 syrup (flameout, candisyrup.com)
~~~hops
19g challenger 8.9% @ 60m
~~~flameout spices
-1.6g cinnamon (powdered)
-7.4g orange (clementine)
-1g thyme (dried)
-3.4g coriander (crushed)

I made some subs based on availability: munich for the coffee malt and I didn't have enough pilsner so topped up with 2-row. I increased the cinnamon & orange by 50% based on the tasting notes provided by TallYotie & CSI.

It is now 6 months old. I didn't quite hit my OG so ended up 1.080-->1.016 (8.7% abv after bottle conditioning). I find it still a little hot but mostly I find it too fruity with too much sugar twang. I find pannepot has an dominant chocolate aroma & flavour which carries forward into a dry finish and is lacking here. Spices overall are quite subdued - thyme was evident early on but @ 6m I can find perhaps only cinnamon (although I find ethanol tastes like cinnamon so can't be sure!).

I look forward to seeing how this continues to evolve but I'm planning a re-brew for next week. I will mash high and attempt to get a low ~65% attenuation to have a thicker body. I will drop the candi syrup by 25% and use a blend of med & dark syrups. I'll increase the chocolate malt by 1/3 and perhaps blend in a tiny bit of patent malt to dry out the finish. I'm going to also add a small amount of cocoa powder at flameout as it's the best idea I have to really get the chocolatiness. For the spices, I'll increase again slightly the cinnamon & orange since I like these flavours and definitely find orange present in pannepot. I'll leave the coriander the same & drop the thyme slightly as I don't like these flavours. Going to go with 100% pilsner malt this time even though I don't appreciate what difference it makes in a dark beer. Also going to drop the corn.

I welcome and appreciate any feedback while I plan my brew! Thanks.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Thanks for the notes and your take on the recipe! Your modifications for the next round sounds reasonable. This seems to be a really tricky beer to figure out. I need to try it again, been brewing for events so I haven't been able to really brew for myself.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I look forward to seeing how this continues to evolve but I'm planning a re-brew for next week. I will mash high and attempt to get a low ~65% attenuation to have a thicker body. I will drop the candi syrup by 25% and use a blend of med & dark syrups. I'll increase the chocolate malt by 1/3 and perhaps blend in a tiny bit of patent malt to dry out the finish. I'm going to also add a small amount of cocoa powder at flameout as it's the best idea I have to really get the chocolatiness. For the spices, I'll increase again slightly the cinnamon & orange since I like these flavours and definitely find orange present in pannepot. I'll leave the coriander the same & drop the thyme slightly as I don't like these flavours. Going to go with 100% pilsner malt this time even though I don't appreciate what difference it makes in a dark beer. Also going to drop the corn.

I welcome and appreciate any feedback while I plan my brew! Thanks.

How did this turn out, Algonzo? I've never been able to find Pannepot - do you know if there is somewhere in the Toronto area where it can be sampled?

 

[Algonzo]

Hi Bottoms_Up, sorry I don't think it's possible to find this in Toronto. I lived in europe for a few years and had access to it from time to time in beer boutiques in Paris and it's my present lack of access which fuels my desire to make something as delicious.

My second attempt was pretty much as I indicated above - I dropped the candi syrup a little and added cocoa power @ 5g/L. I increased orange & cinnamon and dropped the coriander & thyme. I did a hot mash (71c) for 30m to limit attenuation and ended up with 1.092-->1.028, 8.7% abv. It was in primary for 2 months before being bottled and had my last one @ 6m earlier in December. The main issue is that it is not well carbonated. I also didn't get the chocolatiness that I want and I think that cocoa powder may not be the way to go because i get more of a lowly roasted milk chocolate flavour rather than the dark chocolate I'm going for - I'll likely go with dark malt over cocoa powder next time. Spices seem ok but I will be quite substantially increasing the orange.

Hopefully the carbonization will pick up with a little more aging and I'm planning to do annual brews of this in the spring with my next one being in March so I have some time yet to consider my recipe tweaks. Cheers.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Hi Bottoms_Up, sorry I don't think it's possible to find this in Toronto. I lived in europe for a few years and had access to it from time to time in beer boutiques in Paris and it's my present lack of access which fuels my desire to make something as delicious.

My second attempt was pretty much as I indicated above - I dropped the candi syrup a little and added cocoa power @ 5g/L. I increased orange & cinnamon and dropped the coriander & thyme. I did a hot mash (71c) for 30m to limit attenuation and ended up with 1.092-->1.028, 8.7% abv. It was in primary for 2 months before being bottled and had my last one @ 6m earlier in December. The main issue is that it is not well carbonated. I also didn't get the chocolatiness that I want and I think that cocoa powder may not be the way to go because i get more of a lowly roasted milk chocolate flavour rather than the dark chocolate I'm going for - I'll likely go with dark malt over cocoa powder next time. Spices seem ok but I will be quite substantially increasing the orange.

Hopefully the carbonization will pick up with a little more aging and I'm planning to do annual brews of this in the spring with my next one being in March so I have some time yet to consider my recipe tweaks. Cheers.

Thanks for the update, Algonzo. I've heard so much about it that I would like to give it a go, but not having had the original, I'm not sure what to compare it to. Are there any other beers that are similar in taste?

 

[Algonzo]

Pannepot is basically a cross between an export stout & an abbey quad (as described by Urbain@DeStruise) with some light spicing.

There's nothing similar that I know of and since the craft beer market seems to prefer clear categorization and heavy spicing when in use - I'm not sure the market here would support such a beer!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Thanks, Algonzo. No, the market's not here in Ontario yet. Abbey beers are not that popular, except when it is heavily marketed such as the stir a few years ago when Westvleteren became available. Got back from the US a couple of weeks ago, and Ontario still seems FAR behind the States in terms of availability good craft beer. In fact, Ontario is still far behind Quebec and British Columbia as well.

 

[Algonzo]

I just bottled my 2017 version.

In my previous batches, I didn't find it had enough chocolate flavor. Last time I tried to add cocoa powder but found this gave a mild milk chocolate flavor instead of dark. This time I decided to go with increased roast grains and since Urbain notes somewhere that the idea behind this beer is to be a cross between a "soft export stout & a strong dark belgian", I'm convinced this is the way to go. I used a mix of 2/3 roast barley & 1/3 black patent at half the level I use in my export stout.

I left the spices the same except that I increased the orange by 50%. This time my orange zest was very juicy/oily and I realize that this method probably doesn't give the most consistent result so I may consider using dried peel or tincture next time.

In my previous 2 batches I had trouble with head retention after leaving in primary for 2 and 3 months and priming to 2.4v. To attempt to resolve this, I added a small portion of wheat flour to the mash which I do with several of my other brews to get a nice head. I also bottled more quickly after only one month in primary, and increased the priming to 2.7v.

I was intending to ferment this with windsor which was I going to carry over in all my brews this season but it became infected so I had to improvise by using a blend of t-58, windsor & nottingham in a previous lighter ale and I carried over the slurry.

This is my recipe:

[8L, 1.102-->1.028, 68% efficient, 70% attenuation]
3.200 2-row
0.040 munich [/.5%]
0.080 special-b [/1%]
0.080 roast barley [/1%]
0.040 patent [/.5%]
0.240 white wheat flour [/3%]
0.240 candi syrup [/3%]
---mash w/ 7.912L (215%) 71c x 40m
---sparge w/ 5.560L (151%)
---boil x 1h, 4L boiloff
-7.5g centennial 8.7% [202 AA, 25 IBU)
---flameout spices:
-0.8g cinnamon [/.01%] (powder)
-5.0g orange [/.0625%] (mandora tangerine zest)
-0.3g thyme [/.004%] (dried)
-1.3g coriander [/.016%] (crushed)
---aerate w/ drill, pitch 500g slurry

I was very happy to hit my OG. However it attenuated a bit more than I desired down to 1.025, so I'll should end up with 10.5% ABV after bottle conditioning.

Tastings so far have been mostly fruity and not too much detectable roastiness so I'm at least confident that I didn't over-do it. I'll try to be disciplined and wait a good six months before trying it. Cheers!

 

[UCChemE05]

Thanks for the update! Be sure to keep us posted as you try these during the aging process.